Episode 22

full
Published on:

13th Jun 2025

Kalia Abiade, VP of Pillars Fund, on Faith, Family, and the Future We Fight For

Kalia Abiade, VP of Pillars Fund, on Faith, Family, and the Future We Fight For

In this episode of the American Muslim Podcast, hosted by Imam Tariq El-Amin and presented by Bayan on Demand, we engage in a deep conversation with Kalia Abiade, the Executive Vice President at Pillars Fund. Kalia shares her insights on growing up in California, her family's migration experiences, and the impact these have had on her life and work in advocacy, media policy, and philanthropy. We discuss the importance of storytelling, the notion of objectivity in journalism, and the essential role of preserving community narratives. Kalia underscores the power of connection, sharing stories within the community, and the faith-driven commitment to social change. Join us as we delve into her inspiring journey and the work being done by the Pillars Fund to support and amplify Muslim voices in creative and civic spaces.

00:00 Introduction to Bayan on Demand

01:00 Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast

01:09 Meet Kalia Abiade: A Voice for Justice

02:25 Formative Experiences in California

03:15 Migration Stories and Family History

06:41 Life in Chicago and Connection to the Land

09:59 Cultural Shock and Becoming Muslim in Florida

12:51 Journalistic Integrity and Objectivity

20:14 Pillars Fund and Muslim Narrative Change

33:54 Exploring the Creative Approach to Muslim Storytelling

34:23 The Impact of Horror Genre on Diverse Audiences

35:56 Challenges and Gaps in Muslim Representation in Media

37:20 The American Muslim Documentary: Filling Historical Gaps

39:43 The Power of Personal Stories in History

42:13 The Role of Journalism in Shaping Narratives

45:03 Legacy Media vs. New Media: Preserving Stories

50:33 Leadership and Inspiration in Community Work

58:33 Final Reflections and Closing Remarks

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Transcript
Imam Tariq:

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As Salaamu Alaikum, may the peace

that only God can give be with you.

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I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin

and welcome to the American Muslim

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Podcast presented by Bayan on Demand.

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On today's episode, I am honored to have

with us Kalia Abiade She's the Executive

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Vice President at Pillars Fund, a

national nonprofit dedicated to amplifying

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Muslim civic and creative leaders to

advance opportunity and justice for all.

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With nearly two decades of experience

at the intersections of media policy

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and philanthropy, Kalia has long been

a powerful voice for racial equity,

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religious freedom, and immigrant rights.

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Her work at Insights have shaped

national conversations and have

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been featured in the New York

Times, the Washington Post, NPR and

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Beyond, originally from California.

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Ah, such wonderful weather there.

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Welcome to the American

Muslim Podcast, my sister.

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Kalia Abiade: Wa Alaikum As

Salaam ,. Thank you so much.

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Imam Tariq: Well, I appreciate you,

uh, taking the time, you know, out

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of your, I'm sure, which is a quite

weighty and busy schedule to have this

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conversation with us when we'll first

start by saying, we always invite our

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guests to be as open, as vulnerable, as

transparent as they are comfortable being

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and sharing, uh, their story, right?

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Because there's certainly, obviously

just in the little bit that I've

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shared about your, uh, your, your

bio, um, there's value also in what

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brought you to where you are today.

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When you look back on your

early life in California.

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Are there any formative experiences

that stand out as having, shall

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we say, planted the seeds for your

later work and justice and advocacy?

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Kalia Abiade: Wow.

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Well, first of all, thank you so much

for having me and I love talking about

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growing up in California You know,

in my child mind is such a magical

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time and I was surrounded by so many

family members and people that I loved.

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Uh, love, love, love, love.

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So I would say there's so many moments

and you know, of course as an adult I've

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been able to reconstruct, you know, just

as, and especially as a parent, like

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what are the things that I wanted to

take from my own experiences growing up.

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But the thing that really sticks out to

me, I think are, are kind of two things.

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One is just like my better

understanding of stories of migration.

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Um, Isabelle Wilkerson's book, the

Warmth of Other Sons, like Truly

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Yes, changed my life and the way I

understand my own family's stories.

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And so my mom's side of the family is

from the Philippines and migrated in

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the 1920s and the 1940s to the Bay Area.

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Bay Area ish.

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And my dad's side of the family is from

Corsa, Texas and migrated around the

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same time in the 1940s to the Bay Area.

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And in many ways their stories were

so, so parallel because they left

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home very young, um, never to go back.

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Right.

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It was just that one way MI migration

and they landed in the, at the

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time you weren't calling a move

from Texas to California migration.

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Right.

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Until we understood it

as the great migration.

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But understanding how these

stories, how my grandparents' lives

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intersected without even knowing it.

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How that ended up with my parents

meeting one another and then living

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here in Chicago now and being the

site, you know, such an important

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site of the great migration living,

you know, in a neighborhood that

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is just foundational in that story.

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I've been able to like recreate like

a better understanding of all those

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small moments that did make this up.

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So sometimes this was spending time in

a Filipino community center in Stockton,

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California, where there was dancing

and food, but also labor organizing

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that I didn't realize was happening.

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Right.

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And these moments of mutual aid where I

just understood this as people sharing

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what they had or sending things back home.

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But now I understand I have different

vocabulary to put around that.

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And the same thing on my dad's

side of the family, knowing that my

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grandmother moved from Corsicana, um,

to live with a family that we only

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understood to be like Big Dad, big Mama.

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We didn't know their names right?

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I was big dad.

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Um, but knowing that that man actually

was pivotal in, um, the Pullman Porters

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Union and some of the organizing that

was happening there and understanding

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that there was labor organizing happening

on both sides of my family and that

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my dad before he went to college.

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It was sort of, you know, wayward, uh,

Berkeley High graduate and just like

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living his best life in the 1970s, right?

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As a young black man in, uh, in Berkeley.

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And his family was like, young

man, you are going to be a Pullman.

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You're gonna like ride the that

car from Oakland to Chicago.

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That's your route.

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And he got to a place where he was like,

I don't necessarily wanna be shining

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white man shoes for the rest of my life.

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This is a really powerful space

for organizing and these people are

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doing really dignified work, but I

understand what my family's doing.

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They want me to find my way

and do something different.

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And so there, I just knew these

stories growing up, right?

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I didn't know them in these contexts of

what it meant to grow up in the sixties

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and seventies in the Bay Area, or to take

that trip from Oakland to Chicago and

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how important that was or to, you know,

make these trips overseas from, um, the

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Philippines and other places, you know,

outside of the country or over land.

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But I just lived that every day and

getting to see these examples of

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how people came together, how people

organized around labor, how people

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supported one another, but also

did it with such a joy and dignity.

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Um, I think those are the things that

I think about when I think about home.

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Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Hmm.

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Do you feel a particular connection

to the California area that is

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different than your connection being

rooted now with your family, you

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know, here in the Chicagoland area?

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Uh, is is there a difference

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Kalia Abiade: besides the produce?

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Because I can get really mad

grocery shopping in Chicago.

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You know, I like when I'm at my parents'

home in California, there are these plums

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that like, they just fall off the tree.

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They're so ripe.

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I saw them the last time I was there

a couple weeks ago, and they were

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green and they're getting ready.

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They're about to fall off that tree

and be so juicy and they smell amazing.

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And when my youngest son, who's

now seven, he was there, you

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know, just before he was two.

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And he would just, every morning would

eat like four or five plums juice,

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like dripping all down his face.

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And I came back to California, to

Chicago and they smelled like water.

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I was like, these plums don't have a

taste or smell, they're just red water.

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Um, so besides that, 'cause I can

really, really talk about that at

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length and I think it's important.

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It's not just, it's something I

joke about, but it was a connection

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to the land in a way that I

don't, I have to seek out here.

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Um, and it's a connection

to this understanding of

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what we may need to survive

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mm-hmm.

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Kalia Abiade: That we don't know

how to do anymore as a people.

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Right.

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Like, we don't know many times how

to grow our own food or to cultivate

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land in that way and be connected.

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In that way.

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So there are some differences because I

just was surrounded by it and I didn't

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realize how much that abundance of like

actual physical food was so important.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, but I'd say the differences, I, I, I

don't think, I think we're, I'm my husband

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and I, and you know, uh, my husband, we're

constantly trying to create community

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and a sense of home for our family.

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And that's the most important thing.

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I feel like I, um, my roots are

for sure in California and I have

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a deep connection to Florida after

spending, uh, more than a decade there.

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But this is home for us and so I

like to go back there to visit, but

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for my kids, um, seeing it through

their eyes like they are Chicagoans

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and that really means a lot to me.

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So knowing that both my dad had that

connection of Chicago, but my grandmother

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from the Philippines also did, she came

here and worked at Michael Reese Hospital.

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Um, as a young Filipino nurse.

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So I feel like this is where I'm supposed

to be and yeah, there are differences

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for sure, but the similarity is that

like we are really trying to cultivate

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a sense of home here and belonging.

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Imam Tariq: So you mentioned

there's also a connection to

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Florida having gone to school there.

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Can you see what each space that

you've been able to spend time

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in, how it has impacted you?

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I mean, I guess it's pretty obvious

with, with California, you know, with

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the grapefruit and you know, home, you

know, but, but as these other places that

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you've been to, are you able to identify

the imprint that they've made on you?

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Kalia Abiade: I keep going back to

Isabel Wilkerson and I've met her once

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in person here in Chicago and I had to

stop myself from just like overdoing it.

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And you meet like a celebrity

like Michael Jackson or something.

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I was just like, you changed my life.

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But, um, moving to Florida as a

14-year-old from California was a

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culture shock, to say the least.

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I thought it was moving to like Miami

Vice, you know, like just right.

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Disney World, something like that.

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But I was moving to the south

and like that's what I didn't

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understand and I got off.

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Um, my family took the train from LA to

Palka, Florida, which is just a little

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south of Jacksonville, pretty small town.

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And we were just in New

Orleans when we stopped there.

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We stopped for a few hours, you

know, you get out, stretch your

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legs in Palka, the train stopped.

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You took your train, your bags

off the train and then it left.

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And we were just standing in

the middle of a forest and I

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was like, what have you done?

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Parents, like, where are we?

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What's going on?

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And I think the way that that shaped

me was understanding my family's story.

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No, my family wasn't from Florida.

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I mentioned Texas and

Alabama, uh, South Carolina.

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But understanding myself as a product,

like my connection to the south and

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how, what it looked like for people

whose families didn't migrate right.

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For people who stayed and

what that looked like.

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To have that connection, to be able

to trace your family back 3, 4, 5

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generations to the same plot of land.

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Mm-hmm.

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My friends had these

deep, deep roots there.

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And I thought that was so special and

something that even though I like had,

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you know, connections to my family, I

didn't have connections to my family

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in Texas and Oklahoma in that same way.

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I didn't have this connection

to that land in the way.

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I was definitely a guest I

felt like, but it was so.

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Special to think about what

it looks like to have that.

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And so that's one piece that I felt

like a reclamation, I guess, of my

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identity and like a sense of who I was.

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Mm-hmm.

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But I also became Muslim in Florida.

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Um, I got met my husband in Florida.

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Um, experience, you know, had my first

real job as a journalist in Florida,

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um, in the months after nine 11 as a

new Muslim, as the only Muslim, um,

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working in the newsroom in the newspaper.

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The world changed, you know, at that time.

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And I was in Florida as it changing.

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And as you're watching what's

happening in Florida now,

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there's so many parallels, right?

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The government really, um, cracking

down on just free speech and any

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semblance of what we think of as

progress or what I think of as progress.

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Being really intentional and seeding it.

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Like in the universities when

I was there in college, um, was

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one of the first attempts at

rolling back affirmative action.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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These are things I

experienced as a young adult.

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And so just having that attunement

and like, like I said, finding

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my like, spiritual sense of self

in Florida, it's a really, um, I

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wouldn't trade it for anything.

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It was just a really important

time to, for me to be there.

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Imam Tariq: Mm.

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From a journalism standpoint, being in

the room, as the culture shifted as, as

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looking back and realizing that a lot

of what was presented to the American

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people was spurious, um, outright lies.

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Um, so when it comes to journalistic

integrity, right, this idea of

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vetting sources, vetting information.

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How do you think the erosion of that

has impacted, um, the work that you

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do, the rooms you know, that you're in?

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How do you deal with that?

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Kalia Abiade: Oh, how

do you deal with that?

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I mean, I see your shirt,

right, right, right.

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In this education, I think of a time

when I was in J school and one of

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my photojournalism professors was

talking about his experiences traveling

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the world as a photojournalist.

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And in my.

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Very naive, wrong but loud era, you know,

um, I have really bought into this idea

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of objectivity in journalism, right?

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That journalists are objective and you

know, we have to not put our opinions

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or perspectives or life experiences

on the table to be a good journalist.

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And you're just reporting

the facts, right?

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Like this, just, that's it.

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And my, I remember this, uh,

photojournalist professor, he was looking

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at me like, have I taught you nothing?

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Like, what is wrong with you?

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And he couldn't believe how loud and

wrong I was being in a public setting.

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Like it wasn't in class.

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This was like at a public conversation

where there were people from

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outside of our institution there.

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And so I'm glad, I'm glad that he,

you know, he called me in, I would say

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he was questioning me in the moment,

but we had a deeper conversation

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about this and continued to, and

like nobody is objective, right?

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And I think a lot of us have bought

into this idea of objectivity, whether

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you're in academia or philanthropy, the

field that I'm in now or in journalism,

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that you don't bring your full

selves to the work that you're doing.

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And I think we're more honest.

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Um, we can be more honest about

the journalism that's happening.

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When you do talk about where you're

coming from, why you ask, the questions

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that you ask, why you go to the,

the sources that you go to, whose

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voices get privileged over others.

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When we start to have a better

understanding of like where

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we're coming from, we can

filter information differently.

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But I think a lot of us have been taught

to believe that there's such thing

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as like fact even in research, right?

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Like this is fact based,

that there's no, um.

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You know, subjectivity in here and, and

my husband's in the hard sciences, right?

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He's an engineer and

material science scientist.

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And I, I've learned a lot from

watching how he teaches, right?

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How he talks about ethics in

science, especially as technology

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is the technology is evolving.

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How he has to build in

lessons on engineering ethics.

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When we're thinking about who's

gonna be creating our self, like our

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self-driving cars, or even who created

the sensors like in washroom, right?

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Where like, whose skin tone is recognized

under those lights for the water to

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come on and the soap to dispense it

really matters who's designing, um,

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the tools that we're engaging with.

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And so I, there's no such

thing as objectivity, right?

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We have to be transparent

about where we're coming from.

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And I think that has gotten

us into a lot of trouble.

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Um, just in terms of like what journalism

is considered the standard, who's.

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Journalistic voices are

perceived as acceptable.

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Um, I've talked with so many Muslim

journalists through my work at Pillars

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Fund, who feel like they have to hide

certain parts of themselves when they're

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reporting on their own communities.

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And like, who better to report on a

community than somebody from within

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it who can speak to the nuance and

do it with compassion versus like

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always having to have an objective

outsider come in that objective

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outsiders often like white and or male.

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Mm-hmm.

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Coming into communities of color

or communities overseas and being

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like, I'm bringing you the like

fair and balanced perspective.

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Like, who says that that is

more fair and balanced, right?

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What, what are the biases and

the blind spots that are being

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brought in, um, into that?

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So I think as audiences, we obviously

have to get a lot more critical.

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About what we're consuming and take off,

you know, this notion that objectivity

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exists, but also hold our journalism

institutions to higher standards, whether

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that's through what we subscribe to or

what we read, what we click on, but also

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support these like really amazing and

emerging, um, platforms, podcasts, uh,

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you know, are obviously having a moment

right now that's such an important way,

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but so many different types of, um, you

know, new and emerging platforms that are

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really like old, you know, old models.

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We've always had these in

our communities, right?

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Yeah.

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Like I live down the street

from the Chicago defender.

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Like,

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yeah,

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Kalia Abiade: that emerged for a reason.

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Right down the street from that is Ida B.

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Well's home, right?

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Like, we've always had these, so the ways

that we can get back to telling truthful

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stories, and I think being more critical

is supporting institutions like that,

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supporting more people from our community,

um, to do this work and having more

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media not cracking down on what exists.

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Mm

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Imam Tariq: mm.

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So you mentioned Isabel Wilkerson and I,

I love that, uh, book as well, the Warmth

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of Other Sons as well as, uh, what is it?

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Uh, cast, uh, origins.

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Yeah.

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Uh, cast, um, you know, so yeah,

she's, uh, phenomenal and I see

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this and, uh, serving the ends of

sensitizing people, um, giving people

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a, a window into an experience that

they may actually be embedded in but

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not understand how they got there.

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So when you talk about migration,

you know, like, like we, we

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didn't call the folks that came

up from the south refugees.

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Kalia Abiade: That's

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Imam Tariq: right.

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But they certainly would've fit

the criteria, and that is what they

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were a lot of, they were refugees.

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Right.

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They really, a lot of 'em had to steal

their way out of, out of the south.

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Um, so I, I, I don't wanna go off on

a tangent, but what I'm thinking about

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here is the opportunity to introduce

new thoughts or reinforce thoughts

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that kinda get, uh, glossed over or,

or, or hidden the work that you do.

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Now, is there an element of, or

there's an intentional element,

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right, of sensitizing people, right?

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As a, as a means of

institutional thought leadership.

342

:

Can you talk about how, how you go

about that work and what you hope

343

:

people, um, what type of sensitization

you hope people come away with or is

344

:

increased in their proximity or, you

know, um, awareness of your work?

345

:

Kalia Abiade: I love that.

346

:

So I mean, as you know, a Pillars fund

supports a range of Muslim leaders in

347

:

creative and civic spaces, um, and work

get to work with just these incredible

348

:

partners in and alongside of our

community who are just so brilliant and

349

:

creative and thoughtful and critical.

350

:

Um, it's such a privilege to be able

to be in conversation with people that

351

:

I've held up as heroes for a really

long time and just to like have a

352

:

normal conversation with them, just

like, you are so smart, you know, and I

353

:

just wanna collect all of these folks.

354

:

And so I think the first task that

we have, and we did this with a

355

:

program, um, at Pillars called the

Muslim Narrative Change Cohort.

356

:

And so this was just before COVID.

357

:

We were thinking about, okay,

what do we, what kind of cultural

358

:

interventions do we wanna do?

359

:

For a long time we've supported,

um, community based nonprofit

360

:

organizations, legal organizations, and.

361

:

Health clinics, mental health,

you know, work, research,

362

:

all really, really important.

363

:

But how are we gonna really,

really shift this landscape?

364

:

Right?

365

:

Like at a sort of like a little bit

more upstream, like how do we change

366

:

the actual pervasive narratives

that are undergirding so many of

367

:

the challenges that we're having?

368

:

So we assembled this crew of incredible

people who were just thought leaders

369

:

in their own right at the time, right?

370

:

People like Dr.

371

:

Saad, Abdul Zahir, Ali Omar fdo, um, Dr.

372

:

Hussein Rashid, Dr.

373

:

Crystal Truscott.

374

:

I mean, it was like a

dream team of people.

375

:

And I'm leaving a few folks off,

but like, these were people whose

376

:

work I had been familiar with and,

uh, this other brother, Rashid Chaz,

377

:

who's, you know, been, he runs an

organization called Critical Minded and.

378

:

We were trying to do our work,

we were trying to understand this

379

:

work through the lens of some

work that already existed, right?

380

:

Like there was some neuroscience work

happening around, like how do audiences

381

:

react to certain stories that they see?

382

:

There was a lot of work happening

around fandoms, um, and how like

383

:

masses of people like, you know, go

be like, become like a fandom, right?

384

:

Like how does something like for the

Marvel universe or whatever, right?

385

:

There's this whole universe of fans and

so we're trying to understand all these

386

:

things and kind of put existing models

onto Muslim communities and think about

387

:

like, okay, how do we understand this?

388

:

Through this existing neuroscience worker,

through this existing model on fandom.

389

:

And those had limited application.

390

:

They were good, they were useful.

391

:

But what this, this really incredible

crew, the Muslim narrative change cohort

392

:

helped us think about was just like, what

models already exist in our community?

393

:

We do not need to use other

people's models to tell us what

394

:

we should think about ourselves.

395

:

To understand what moves our communities.

396

:

And, um, Rashid Chavez, he asked a

question in this, in this room the first

397

:

time we gathered, which was what, um,

would not exist if not for the presence

398

:

of Muslims in the United States, right?

399

:

Hmm.

400

:

And we just got to open that up

and there was a silence in the

401

:

room that existed at first, right?

402

:

'cause we, we hadn't, it's a simple

question on its face, but it wasn't

403

:

one that we had actually contemplated,

like, what in this country would

404

:

not exist if not for Muslims?

405

:

And we're not talking about

like math and, you know, those

406

:

kinds of things that we hear.

407

:

There's obviously a lot of like those

contributions, but in the cultural

408

:

landscape, and you're just in the

fabric of what this nation has become.

409

:

And I think it just allowed us to ask

different questions, but also most

410

:

importantly, change our audience.

411

:

So a lot of times what I think people

do is try to reach a dominant audience.

412

:

And it's not just Muslim

communities, right?

413

:

Many people do this like, well, we need,

we're being harmed by this dominant

414

:

group, so we need to convince them

that we're good, we're acceptable,

415

:

we're safe, we're just like them.

416

:

All of these things, right?

417

:

But what you do sometimes in

that is you skip your own people

418

:

and don't realize that we need

to be telling ourselves stories.

419

:

We need to be reinforcing these

stories for our own communities.

420

:

We need to be preserving our family

and community stories for ourselves

421

:

and trust that if these are good and

compelling stories, which they are, they

422

:

will resonate with the outside audience.

423

:

And we have all these

examples of this, right?

424

:

I more recently, some kind of

pop culture examples come up

425

:

like Black Panther, um, insecure.

426

:

These are people, these are stories

that were not necessarily created,

427

:

insecure, especially, it was not

created for a white audience.

428

:

Even though it exists on

HBO, it was created for.

429

:

A set of sort like

millennial black audiences.

430

:

And so some of the jokes, if

you're not part of that community,

431

:

you might not get right.

432

:

But it doesn't matter, they

don't stop to translate.

433

:

They're just like, we're going,

we're going, we're going.

434

:

And so we were like, we can do this too.

435

:

Um, and so I think thinking about

our own people as our audience

436

:

first was the biggest shift that

we've done and has changed the way

437

:

that we've done all of our work.

438

:

Whether that's grant making to

community-based organizations,

439

:

supporting journalists, supporting

emerging Muslim filmmakers.

440

:

It's like, do you

prioritize Muslim audiences?

441

:

What does that look like?

442

:

Are you speaking to my children?

443

:

Are we speaking to your children?

444

:

Right?

445

:

Like, are we speaking to, um, you know,

maybe thinking of the Issa RA's work,

446

:

are we also speaking to like the late

20 something early thirties, something

447

:

black Muslim woman who's navigating our

professional life, not only as a Muslim

448

:

person, but just like as a daughter, as a

sister, as a friend, as a cousin, right?

449

:

Like.

450

:

Just existing in the world.

451

:

And I think again, that's the been the

biggest shift we've been able to make

452

:

is like thinking about our audiences

first, and trusting that these authentic,

453

:

nuanced, kind of messy stories will,

if they resonate with us, they will

454

:

resonate with broader audiences.

455

:

Imam Tariq: Hmm.

456

:

You know, that takes me back to,

uh, the idea of, of this false

457

:

understanding of objectivity.

458

:

And you know, how it often leads

to a pandering or a, uh, an erasure

459

:

because you turn, you, you basically

give the microphone to somebody who

460

:

doesn't understand, uh, context,

doesn't understand culture, and they

461

:

arrive at, um, they, they arrive

at conclusions that are incomplete

462

:

and skewed and sometimes harmful.

463

:

And it's, it's unfortunate.

464

:

It's not until.

465

:

And we find this in scholarship, in

academia, the idea of ethnographic

466

:

research where you are able to

embed yourself into your research

467

:

and you, you own that, right?

468

:

So, I mean, that's what I'm hearing.

469

:

I think that's one of, one of the things

that I'm much more excited about is

470

:

that people are owning their perspective

and coming at it from a position of,

471

:

there's value here and I don't need

you to tell me that there's value.

472

:

I know there's value here.

473

:

Right?

474

:

So when you think about the, the diversity

of the Muslim community and being able

475

:

to, I guess being, being in all of these,

these different rooms, right there,

476

:

there're not many of us who get the

opportunity to see the different corners.

477

:

Right.

478

:

Um, but what has that experience

done for you in terms of, I don't

479

:

wanna say a HA hierarchy of.

480

:

Of how those voices are

presented, but maybe

481

:

the, the, the tonality in terms of how

they, how they work together so that it's

482

:

not just noise, but as, uh, I was talking

to Preacher Moss, but as it's, it's sound.

483

:

Right.

484

:

Um,

485

:

Ooh.

486

:

Kalia Abiade: Well, it might

feel a little noisy still.

487

:

Yeah.

488

:

It might still feel a little

noisy, but I think that's okay.

489

:

Um, I, I feel really fortunate at Pillars.

490

:

We've been able to, I'm not gonna

say we've always gotten it right,

491

:

'cause we certainly haven't, and

there's always something to learn.

492

:

And every time we do anything, whether

that's a grant cycle or a fellowship

493

:

cycle, or even programming or even a

small gathering, right, there's always

494

:

something that we're like, okay,

like here's what worked and here's.

495

:

The shifts that we're going

to make and need to make.

496

:

So there's constantly a fine tuning on

that, and that includes compositions

497

:

of rooms or groups or, you know, just

whose voices are, are included or louder.

498

:

I think one thing that we did really,

really early that I'm super grateful

499

:

for is just think about, okay, who has

historically been excluded from within the

500

:

Muslim community in some of these spaces?

501

:

What are the ways that we might be as a

community, as a, as a set of communities?

502

:

I will say, right?

503

:

We've one said we're not

of monolithic community.

504

:

There's no one Muslim community.

505

:

But as a set of communities, how

might we, how might we be replicating,

506

:

um, external patterns of harm or

behavior, you know, that prioritize

507

:

certain voices and exclude others.

508

:

Initially the first, um, and clearest way

to think about this was the way that black

509

:

Muslim communities have been foundational

to American history, but silence in

510

:

a lot of Muslim spaces like that was

just the, the first and easiest way to

511

:

like, where we turned our attention to.

512

:

It was also, if I'm being honest,

like a relatively easy way to track

513

:

if we were changing that or not.

514

:

Right?

515

:

It was real, like in the early

years it was like, okay, if we

516

:

have 20 grantees, this many are

led by black Muslims done, right?

517

:

Like it wasn't that simple, but it was an

easier sort of thing to be like, are we

518

:

actually hitting this just from a purely

like non-profit, you know, industrial

519

:

complex kind of way of measuring.

520

:

That's not the whole story, obviously.

521

:

Um, but it was a place to start.

522

:

And so I would say it's still,

um, I don't know if we've like.

523

:

I think it's been really important

for us to not try to make all of the

524

:

voices to think of it maybe like as

525

:

a mosaic or like fabric.

526

:

It doesn't need to be

like seamless, right?

527

:

Like these things, like different

elements of our community can coexist

528

:

and maybe it will sound noisy at a time.

529

:

When you think about like an orchestra

and when they're like warming up

530

:

and it's like, like all of the

like sounds, and then there are

531

:

moments where they come together.

532

:

Then there are moments where

it's like scratchy again.

533

:

I really love that.

534

:

Um, I'm gonna be thinking

about that a lot.

535

:

The, the difference

between noise and sound.

536

:

And also, um, URA Yusef

talks about that too, right?

537

:

How she, she will ask where the

singers or sing, there's no, you

538

:

know, she's such a beautiful singer

and I'll be like, I cannot do that.

539

:

And she's like.

540

:

You just sound, you don't need to sing.

541

:

Just sound like we, we'll,

we'll sound together.

542

:

Right.

543

:

And it's just a really beautiful

invitation to join this thing

544

:

without needing it to be perfect.

545

:

And so I think we've really gone for,

yeah, some kind of like harmonizing

546

:

that doesn't need to be like totally,

totally like on the money all the time,

547

:

but it's really difficult and you have

to, I think we've had to resist, um,

548

:

some of the urges to go that nonprofit

industrial, like the, the census counting

549

:

of like who's there, but also think

about like, uh, what are some stories?

550

:

So I'll give a a more concrete example

'cause I am all over the place and

551

:

you've made me really think about this.

552

:

Um, we have among our, so we

have this program called the

553

:

Pillars Artist Fellowship.

554

:

And it's emerging Muslim

filmmakers 10 per cycle.

555

:

They are writers like screenwriters

and directors and just.

556

:

So funny and sensitive and

brilliant, all of the things, right?

557

:

And so sometimes that people make

pretty big assumptions like, okay,

558

:

we've got documentary film, we've

got TV writers, we've got maybe some

559

:

folks who are working in like, you

know, sort of coming of age stories.

560

:

This past year in our, our cohort that

just closed, we have this Bangladeshi

561

:

filmmaker who is into horror.

562

:

Now, that is not my thing.

563

:

I'm terrified.

564

:

Like even watching his samples, I was

like, ah, like, it's so terrifying to me.

565

:

But he's, you can tell when you watch

his stuff that he is brilliant, right?

566

:

Like you can, you can see it jump

off the screen Now, who would think

567

:

of like a Muslim director engaging

in like horror film, but he weaves

568

:

in familiar Muslim stories, right?

569

:

Like commentary on the spiritual life

and like the earthly realm, right?

570

:

It's all there.

571

:

In a way that I would say like, you

know, not, not to make this direct

572

:

comparison, but like in the way that

people who watch Sinners might experience

573

:

like, Ooh, this is hard, but it's

making me engage with like my spiritual

574

:

self, my sense of self in community,

my sense of self over time, right?

575

:

And so I think of New Hash, this

is this filmmaker's name, his

576

:

work, he just, he premiered a

film at, uh, south by Southwest.

577

:

He just won this really big award, um, in

the Bangladeshi film, um, you know, space.

578

:

And he spent a good amount of

his, you know, uh, time in Texas.

579

:

And that's, you know, the kinds of stories

that it's not just a tick box, right?

580

:

Oh, we've got this type of director.

581

:

This, it's like, what, how

creatively is he approaching

582

:

this way to tell Muslim stories?

583

:

What does it mean to tell a Muslim story?

584

:

Is there one time type Of

course, no, there's not one

585

:

type of Muslim story, right?

586

:

But we can really, really get

into the layers and I think for.

587

:

Uh, for me right now, like his

work represents like all of the

588

:

messiness and the nuance and the

discomfort that I personally have

589

:

with like, the genre of horror.

590

:

Mm.

591

:

But the way that it reaches people

and the way that it reaches audiences

592

:

and the way that it's resonating

with people who don't even know

593

:

anything about Bangladeshi culture

or language or Muslims or anything,

594

:

you're drawn in because he's such a, a

creative and magnificent storyteller.

595

:

And I think that's the kind of stuff

that I want to, like uplift even

596

:

more, even if I can't watch it.

597

:

I have not seen sinners, by the way.

598

:

'cause I'm so scared you

haven't of stuff like this.

599

:

I know.

600

:

I feel like you gotta go feel,

it's a hard thing to admit.

601

:

Imam Tariq: Well, I, I would

certainly encourage you to see it.

602

:

And it's not, it, even though it's

listed under the horror genre,

603

:

it is not a horror movie at all.

604

:

There's a, there's a

little bit of suspense.

605

:

It's not a lot of gore.

606

:

It's really, really, it's not

607

:

Kalia Abiade: okay.

608

:

It's not, I mean, I might

just think about it.

609

:

I respect it.

610

:

I respect it.

611

:

Imam Tariq: Yeah.

612

:

You said, but I don't

know if I wanna go see it.

613

:

I'm so

614

:

Kalia Abiade: scared.

615

:

I watched New Lash's work because

I like was contractually obligated

616

:

and it's brilliant.

617

:

It really is.

618

:

But I am like this and, but yes, I,

I will take that into consideration.

619

:

Okay.

620

:

Imam Tariq: So, uh, I guess as you

were kind of talking about his work,

621

:

I was thinking about how, you know,

as I mentioned in your bio, that your

622

:

work, your voice has contributed to,

uh, to this narrative about, you know,

623

:

Muslims in America, you know, right

through, was it the New York Times

624

:

and NPR and to some other outlets.

625

:

Um.

626

:

What are, and the work that you're doing

now with pillars and like you said,

627

:

raising up, um, you know, facilitating

the work of a Muslim filmmaker, a

628

:

Bangladeshi horror, uh, director.

629

:

Right.

630

:

It's not what jumps to the front

of your mind when you think

631

:

about Muslim contribution and

involvement in the arts, right.

632

:

And media.

633

:

So it does speak directly to that.

634

:

There are gaps that are

there and sometimes we don't

635

:

recognize what those gaps are.

636

:

So as you've, uh, uh, in your experience

and, um, what are some of the other gaps

637

:

that we might not be even thinking of?

638

:

Because like I said, who would've

thought Muslim Bangladeshi

639

:

horror, uh, uh, film director.

640

:

Right.

641

:

Kalia Abiade: I think going

back to, you know, what we were

642

:

talking about earlier about.

643

:

Reclaiming stories and sort of this,

you know, the stories that have

644

:

kind of been lost along the way.

645

:

I'm really grateful, and I know

you've experienced and, and watched

646

:

at least some of the episodes from

the American Muslim documentary, but

647

:

I think of that as an example of gaps

648

:

for a couple of reasons, right?

649

:

So this is a, a documentary that's

been platformed by PBS, um, executive

650

:

produced by a man named Graham

Judd, and then Zahir Ali and Dr.

651

:

Meha Al Hassan.

652

:

And just the people who appear in this

six series documentary are just like a,

653

:

who's who of, you know, like American

Muslim scholars, um, just incredible

654

:

historian, sociologists, anthropologists.

655

:

The stories that they lift up are

really deeply, it's a, his, you

656

:

know, it's supposed to be an epic.

657

:

Story of American history and

the Muslim's contributions in it.

658

:

And one thing that Zahir, one of the EP

says on this, um, in all of his work,

659

:

but he talks about the ways that Muslims

have shaped America, but in the ways

660

:

that America has shaped Muslims, right?

661

:

So it's this interplay that we are

mutually exchanging and contributing and

662

:

it, these, these six episodes that exist

right now start, um, in early American

663

:

history and kind of end in the 1930s.

664

:

And so it seems like, okay, we have a lot

written about, you know, our communities.

665

:

There's a lot of scholarship that exists.

666

:

So it doesn't necessarily seem like a gap.

667

:

I think what the gap is, is the personal

touch that's put on each of them.

668

:

So in each of these six episodes,

there's one person, right?

669

:

Well, there, there's a couple.

670

:

It, it's merging time.

671

:

'cause each of them is, um.

672

:

There's like a lead interrogator,

which is a current, the contemporary

673

:

American Muslim journalist, which is

a really amazing way to go about it.

674

:

I think you have this seeker, this

person who's going after this story and

675

:

uncovering, but then they're connecting

with one person from history who is an

676

:

like one person that exists in that story.

677

:

So we're not uplifting these,

you know, uh, sort of exemplars.

678

:

We're not uplifting these

people who stand alone, right?

679

:

They're ordinary people.

680

:

And I think sometimes that's what

we miss is that we miss the ordinary

681

:

stories of the people who have been

in, you know, in, in some of these

682

:

like capital H history stories.

683

:

There's, there's people there.

684

:

And so when I was telling even my own

family stories about like labor movements

685

:

and all of these things that I've

read about, I can see myself in those.

686

:

I can see my family 'cause I understand

how my family was a part of these.

687

:

So it doesn't feel so abstract.

688

:

I think that's one thing that's been

really special about this series is that.

689

:

You start, especially the Chicago

episode, which is the last one, right?

690

:

You start to see this woman,

Florence, and the way she navigated

691

:

Bronzeville, a neighborhood in

Chicago, the way she was kind of

692

:

traveling and commuting up to Evanston.

693

:

This is her daily life.

694

:

But in that, you get how she

became Muslim, what was happening.

695

:

You start thinking about what

was happening with the Muslim

696

:

community in the 1920s and

thirties in Chicago specifically.

697

:

You start thinking about what's

happening with the economy.

698

:

Like it was hard, right?

699

:

There was, we're in between wars and

there's the Great Depression, and you

700

:

just start thinking about these like

really personal ways so it becomes less

701

:

of like bullet points and memorizing

dates and these facts about like when

702

:

this, you know, when this particular

mesh should, was erected or when this

703

:

sort of thing happened in history.

704

:

But like this must have been

really hard for her to get from

705

:

Bronzeville to Evanston every day.

706

:

Or once a week, what was

happening with her children?

707

:

How did that strain her relationships?

708

:

What did that mean for this community of

Muslim women that she found and felt so

709

:

close to How important must they have been

in her life to be a source of strength

710

:

and even a place event in the way that I

do with my friends here in Bronzeville?

711

:

Right?

712

:

And so I think that's the gap, is that

that personal connection, not that these

713

:

stories don't exist and that we don't

have these dates on a timeline, but

714

:

that we don't know like the intimate

lives of the people who live those

715

:

stories, even within our own families.

716

:

And I think those are the things that

come out in creative storytelling or

717

:

some of the journalism work that we're

getting to support are some of these

718

:

new platforms where people are actually,

like journalists are using WhatsApp.

719

:

To source their stories and

to, you know, share them.

720

:

So, yes, a, a news article is appearing

on a website or in print, but it's

721

:

also being shared in WhatsApp.

722

:

Right.

723

:

Or like, that's the way that

people are connecting with their

724

:

sources, their aunties and uncles.

725

:

They are interviewing them on WhatsApp.

726

:

Right?

727

:

And so there's this intimacy that's

coming through, I think, in the

728

:

storytelling that I think for me,

that's been the biggest missing

729

:

piece in a lot of our storytelling.

730

:

Imam Tariq: Hmm.

731

:

What was the, uh, the thing

that inspired you to pursue

732

:

journalism at the, at the outset?

733

:

Kalia Abiade: Well, I definitely

thought that I, I had really

734

:

believed in the black press.

735

:

I had these really great stories about

that, and I was really inspired by that.

736

:

I also just thought I was

going to convince people

737

:

through my objectivity, right?

738

:

I thought if you just

give people the facts.

739

:

Yeah, they will change their mind, right?

740

:

Like that's all you have to do

is just show them the truth.

741

:

Obviously it's a lot more

complicated than that.

742

:

And I was on the copy desk, so I

was like editing people's stories

743

:

primarily and doing page design.

744

:

And a lot of that time there was

like wire copy coming through and as

745

:

I mentioned, it was in the months.

746

:

My first job was in the months after nine

11, I was a new Muslim new journalist.

747

:

It was shortly after the election

of:

748

:

2000, which is like the

hanging chads, right?

749

:

Yeah.

750

:

So I'm in Florida hanging

Chads election in the balance,

751

:

um, new Muslim war on terror.

752

:

Just wild, wild times.

753

:

And I truly thought if we just can

make a few tweaks here and there, if

754

:

we can tell people, you know, what's

really happening, things will change

755

:

you, pros and cons of that approach.

756

:

I learned a lot about the business.

757

:

Of media.

758

:

Um, the jour, the newspaper that

I worked for no longer exists.

759

:

It was a small regional newspaper.

760

:

Part of the New York Times group.

761

:

The New York Times sold

off all the regionals.

762

:

It got bought by somebody

else, by somebody else until

763

:

it just no longer existed.

764

:

And so I think, yeah, that's what

initially brought me to it is I still

765

:

believe in the power of storytelling.

766

:

I still believe you should be

truthful in your storytelling, but

767

:

I don't think that facts alone are

going to like, make the change.

768

:

We've gotta be really, really strategic

in how we share information, uh, what

769

:

truths we believe about ourselves, uh,

first and foremost, you know, how we're

770

:

training ourselves and our children

to be like more media literate and

771

:

critical, but also to be creators and

owners and authors of their own stories.

772

:

Um, so yeah, I guess it was a little

bit of, uh, just a naive worldview,

773

:

but also extreme optimism and, um.

774

:

I think seeing how people,

like I mentioned like Ida B.

775

:

Wells had been able to use

journalism as a really powerful

776

:

tool, um, to actually affect change.

777

:

And I still believe in that.

778

:

I just don't necessarily think that

legacy media will always be the way

779

:

to do that or the only way to do it.

780

:

I think it needs to be part of

like a mosaic of other sources.

781

:

Imam Tariq: Alright.

782

:

And would you say that that, uh,

boundary, that legacy media exists in

783

:

is primarily due to its profit model

and that truth is not for the sake of

784

:

liberating or in really truly informing

people, but it is information for

785

:

this, for the purpose of, um, getting

people hooked on your information.

786

:

Kalia Abiade: I mean,

especially now, right?

787

:

With like the way that digital I.

788

:

Media works and algorithms and how

we have to like, keep people coming.

789

:

So, I mean, yeah, there's always

been really great people inside

790

:

of these institutions and I don't

wanna lose sight of that, right?

791

:

There are really, really, really powerful

things being done inside of some of

792

:

these institutions and using that tool

for what it is, which is a tool, right?

793

:

It's not a tool of necessarily, of

liberation, but it can be a tool

794

:

of enlightenment or, you know,

just exposure or accountability.

795

:

And so, yes, but I think it just,

it really speaks to the importance

796

:

of like, what, what do we own?

797

:

What do we, what do we want to prioritize?

798

:

Do you know what I mean?

799

:

Like, how do we wanna share?

800

:

Actually this conversation has

been coming up a lot lately.

801

:

Um, a lot of people are talking about.

802

:

Document retention and data retention.

803

:

Right.

804

:

Especially maybe I'm saying too

much for the masses, but in, in

805

:

higher ed, in nonprofit spaces, in

philanthropy, any place where people

806

:

are fearful of what's happening with

the current administration, people are

807

:

talking about, okay, what do we save?

808

:

What information do we

save about our work?

809

:

And what information do we not save?

810

:

And what are we legally obligated to save?

811

:

And like what is protective

and not protective?

812

:

And just these conversations

about like the intricacies of

813

:

like law and risk mitigation.

814

:

Mm-hmm.

815

:

Kalia Abiade: And um, I was talking

with a poet recently who was just

816

:

terrified of, um, I'm going on a tangent

but just stay with me for a second.

817

:

So she was talking about how nerve

wracking it is to take things off of her

818

:

computer and save them on hard drives.

819

:

Right.

820

:

Her work or stories or even.

821

:

The way that she and her

communities have organized, right?

822

:

Like we rely so much on the

written word to do what we do.

823

:

And um, and we were being advised that,

you know, maybe there are other ways to

824

:

communicate and preserve these stories.

825

:

Like does everything have to

be written down all the time?

826

:

Historically, as communities, how

have we preserved our stories?

827

:

Have we always written them down?

828

:

Especially when our safety

was on the line, right?

829

:

Mm-hmm.

830

:

Kalia Abiade: I think about the

Underground Railroad, there was no, I

831

:

have not found, correct me if I'm wrong,

no written strategic plan for how we

832

:

are going to carry out the Underground

Railroad and be successful at it.

833

:

Mm-hmm.

834

:

Kalia Abiade: That information had

to be shared in a very different way,

835

:

a creative way, many creative ways.

836

:

It had to be passed down

through oral history.

837

:

The same for Muslims.

838

:

How do we get, how do we have this

revelation that we have today?

839

:

Right.

840

:

It.

841

:

Now it's been written, but

initially it was oral transmission.

842

:

So many things, right?

843

:

So if we go back to these like

844

:

it's, it's not, then it's

not ownership, right?

845

:

It's like how do we preserve

this as a community?

846

:

How do we preserve these

stories as a community?

847

:

Some of this stuff will end up in

traditional media or legacy media or

848

:

our institutes of higher education or

research papers and things like that.

849

:

But so many of these like recipes will

be shared in a very different way.

850

:

And that only can be done

through community, right?

851

:

That can only be done through

knowing people from building trust.

852

:

I still don't have a good bean pie

recipe, and I'm fine with that, right?

853

:

Like I am, okay, come on now with

that, because I trust there are people

854

:

preserving that and that is sacred.

855

:

And if somebody entrusts that, you

know, that guidance to me, at some

856

:

point I will gladly receive and take it.

857

:

In the meantime, I'm happy to eat

everyone else's bean pie and know

858

:

that this is being preserved.

859

:

But the moment I start seeing, right,

like Martha Stewart has a bean pie

860

:

recipe on her website, that's terrible.

861

:

Do you know?

862

:

And plus it looks, it does

not look like the real thing.

863

:

Like I'm like, I wouldn't make that.

864

:

Yeah.

865

:

So I don't think we need to rely, I'm

saying all this same, we don't need

866

:

to rely on legacy media or traditional

media or dominant sources of media.

867

:

We have to think about what are

the ways that we wanna preserve

868

:

stories, our community legacy.

869

:

Some of that will be in writing or

recorded, but some of it will just exist

870

:

person to person, because that's the best.

871

:

And most traditional, most

sacred way of preserving it.

872

:

And philanthropy is not the only field,

you know, going through this right now,

873

:

we're seeing it in higher ed, how people

are navigating, who owns what information,

874

:

what's being prioritized, what's

being said in, you know, quiet rooms.

875

:

Corporations are doing the same thing.

876

:

Everyone's figuring out the

best ways to preserve, uh, their

877

:

legacies, their stories, their

ways of being in the world mm-hmm.

878

:

That don't rely on these outside sources.

879

:

Imam Tariq: Yeah, yeah.

880

:

Um, from a leadership standpoint, I'm

thinking institutionally, are there

881

:

particular lessons that Muslim, uh,

led institutions should be observant

882

:

of, or should, should learn from?

883

:

Well, we'll use the model,

we'll, we'll use the, the media

884

:

as a, as a placeholder, right?

885

:

Not specifically just the media.

886

:

Um, actually what came to

mind was the NAACP right.

887

:

Uh, the idea that you have a financial

interest at, at its, at its core, you have

888

:

a financial interest in inequality and the

persistence of inequality and, and racism.

889

:

And that your job is

to go out and fight it.

890

:

Now, we know, I don't wanna take too much

of a detour, but for the Muslims who are

891

:

listening, and even those who are, who

are not, you know who the devil is, right?

892

:

So from our standpoint, we say, uh, Satan

Shaan has, is an avowed enemy that his job

893

:

is to oppose us at every, at every turn.

894

:

So we know there will always be

resistance, but is there a, a sense of

895

:

complicity in facilitating the, um, the

resistance because it serves our own

896

:

financial, our financial, uh, ends right?

897

:

Yeah.

898

:

This is what I gotta do.

899

:

Are there, are there any part,

I hope, I hope I'm making that

900

:

I'm, I'm saying that clearly,

901

:

Kalia Abiade: I'm not sure

which piece to pick up on.

902

:

Maybe there's

903

:

Imam Tariq: for, for Muslims,

904

:

are we afraid of, I guess I can

say it like this, are we willing

905

:

to work ourselves out of a job?

906

:

Kalia Abiade: Right?

907

:

Yeah.

908

:

Yes.

909

:

So in terms of what, yes.

910

:

I mean, good news, bad news.

911

:

There's a lot of work to do.

912

:

Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

913

:

Kalia Abiade: So everyone's gonna

have a job for a little while.

914

:

Imam Tariq: A long time.

915

:

Kalia Abiade: Bad news.

916

:

That's bad news, right?

917

:

Yeah.

918

:

But I think I, I was, um.

919

:

Part of a, I think, a really special

conversation recently where, uh,

920

:

you know, it was with Ta Hasi Coates

and a group of Muslims who were

921

:

grappling with our role in this moment.

922

:

Um, and what's our responsibility

for the effort that we're putting

923

:

in versus like, the outcomes.

924

:

Hmm.

925

:

Kalia Abiade: And so I think this

was, this is really important

926

:

conversation that we need to be having.

927

:

'cause especially for Muslims who

are working in certain fields, many

928

:

fields, we often feel a responsibility

for the outcome of what's happening.

929

:

But I think if we get back to it, we're,

we're not responsible for the outcome.

930

:

Right.

931

:

We're responsible for our efforts.

932

:

That's right.

933

:

And what we're putting in and trusting

in God that there will be a resolution.

934

:

And that our role is not to see what

that resolution, you know, not to

935

:

see what that outcome is, but to put

forth our, you know, purifier and

936

:

our intentions and put forth our best

efforts to get to that just place.

937

:

And that means like doing our

own work also so that we're

938

:

not contributing to harm.

939

:

And that I think is like, I don't know

if it's a lesson that it's not unique.

940

:

I'm not like coming up with this, right?

941

:

This isn't my own thing.

942

:

But there's two things.

943

:

One is just speaking of like

shades on like this, um, resistance

944

:

or resistance to despair.

945

:

First of all, we have to be faithful.

946

:

We have to believe that another

reality is possible, which is why I

947

:

love working with storytellers because

they can imagine something different.

948

:

And that's an act of faith is imagining

what's on the other side of all of this

949

:

and believing that there will be an other

side and believing that there's good for

950

:

us on that other side and that our job.

951

:

Is to not despair and to keep working

toward it and then to do that.

952

:

And I think that's been a huge lesson

for me getting to work with creatives

953

:

and even like civic leaders who wouldn't

consider themselves artists, but who are

954

:

actively creating these ideas of what's

possible and not losing sight of this.

955

:

And no matter what field we are as

Muslims, it's our responsibility to not

956

:

despair, not give up and have faith in

God that something better is coming.

957

:

And so,

958

:

again, I can't take credit for that

lesson, but that's one that I've learned

959

:

along the way over and over again,

and I'm reminded of and getting to

960

:

work with such incredible artists and

creatives and colleagues every day.

961

:

And one that I'm happy to pass along.

962

:

Imam Tariq: Hmm.

963

:

Well, uh, I don't think you have to

be the author to share truth and share

964

:

good news, so thank you for that.

965

:

Uh, how do you stay inspired

and focused as a leader?

966

:

Kalia Abiade: Well, I mentioned these

awesome creatives and my colleagues.

967

:

They're amazing.

968

:

Um, I also think about my own, like just

family histories that we've talked about

969

:

a little bit that they put in so much.

970

:

And actually, I joke about this,

but, uh, anyone who's lost a parent,

971

:

because this, I don't mean this to

be light or flippant or anything

972

:

like this, it's quite heavy actually.

973

:

But I was having this moment where

I was feeling very, very frustrated.

974

:

Like extremely frustrated about having

to have some conversations around.

975

:

Equity like over and over and over

again with one particular person.

976

:

I was just like, I, I don't

know what else we're gonna do.

977

:

Hmm.

978

:

Like, I don't know what else I can say.

979

:

This is so aggravating to keep

having these conversations.

980

:

Like what?

981

:

I kind of got to the point of what

I just warned myself against, right?

982

:

I was like, you're not despair.

983

:

I was like, what is even the point?

984

:

And my husband reminded me that my dad

worked in higher ed administration for

985

:

40 years and his whole purpose in doing

this explicit implicit everything was to

986

:

get more first generation and more black

students and more students of color into

987

:

college and out of college, right through.

988

:

And he saw a lot, he saw repeals

of equal opportunity programs and

989

:

affirmative action, these ebbs and flows.

990

:

And he, until the day he died, he was

still talking about this work, right?

991

:

He had retired, but he was still doing it.

992

:

And so in my moment of just like,

ah, I can't do this anymore.

993

:

My husband pulled the dead dad card on me.

994

:

He was like.

995

:

Like, how could you possibly, he was

like, you saw what your dad did for

996

:

four decades and he never gave up.

997

:

Like, what raid do we have to quit now?

998

:

And I was like, I have no answer to that.

999

:

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:32,225 --> 00:57:32,585

You know what I mean?

:

00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:33,730

'cause he was completely right.

:

00:57:33,730 --> 00:57:37,150

And so those are the things that

keep me going is understanding

:

00:57:37,150 --> 00:57:41,140

how many people that one man

who I got to see work every day.

:

00:57:41,140 --> 00:57:44,320

Like how many people he influenced

and whose lives he impacted.

:

00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,790

And hearing those stories and knowing

those people, but then also like my own

:

00:57:48,790 --> 00:57:52,960

kids will not, um, let me do nothing.

:

00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,110

Right?

:

00:57:53,140 --> 00:57:54,640

They, they, they will humble you.

:

00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:55,870

You know this, you're a parent.

:

00:57:56,230 --> 00:57:58,030

Children will humble you very quickly.

:

00:57:58,030 --> 00:58:01,180

Like you are not special.

:

00:58:02,380 --> 00:58:03,520

Yeah, I love you.

:

00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:03,580

Yeah.

:

00:58:03,940 --> 00:58:06,490

But like, can I have $10 or Right.

:

00:58:06,490 --> 00:58:07,450

Can you take me?

:

00:58:07,870 --> 00:58:10,150

So I think having both ends, right?

:

00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:14,500

I like this beautiful legacy that

I have the privilege of referring

:

00:58:14,500 --> 00:58:16,360

to and with concrete examples.

:

00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,710

And also these young people who are

looking to me to make sure that it's not

:

00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:22,180

the same for them when they go through.

:

00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:23,380

Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

:

00:58:23,950 --> 00:58:25,600

I, I got one more question of you.

:

00:58:26,110 --> 00:58:27,370

And this really open-ended.

:

00:58:27,940 --> 00:58:28,330

Okay.

:

00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:28,960

Open-ended.

:

00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:29,410

Just finish.

:

00:58:29,410 --> 00:58:30,610

Finish the sentence.

:

00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,410

Take a second to think

about it if you need to.

:

00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:40,450

If people remember one thing about how

I've showed up in my work, I hope it's,

:

00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,680

Kalia Abiade: I hope

it's in a connected way.

:

00:58:48,790 --> 00:58:54,670

I really value my, uh, connections

to my family, to my friends,

:

00:58:54,670 --> 00:58:57,370

to my colleagues, but also I.

:

00:58:57,715 --> 00:59:00,835

To these stories that exist,

you know, in the past and the

:

00:59:00,835 --> 00:59:02,665

ones that we don't know yet.

:

00:59:02,965 --> 00:59:08,965

And so I hope that, yeah, connection

is the word that comes to mind that

:

00:59:08,965 --> 00:59:11,425

I hope is what I can leave behind.

:

00:59:13,645 --> 00:59:13,855

Imam Tariq: Mm.

:

00:59:14,965 --> 00:59:15,505

Wonderful.

:

00:59:15,985 --> 00:59:18,415

I think that's a great way

for us to, to close out.

:

00:59:18,685 --> 00:59:24,625

Um, I wish we had two hours,

uh, but thank you so much.

:

00:59:25,315 --> 00:59:26,515

Uh, family.

:

00:59:26,665 --> 00:59:31,855

Our guest has been Kalia Abiade She is the

Executive Vice President at Pillars Fund.

:

00:59:32,395 --> 00:59:36,475

Uh, you can check out their

work at, well, you know what

:

00:59:36,475 --> 00:59:37,795

we'll do, we'll put their link.

:

00:59:38,110 --> 00:59:42,370

In the show notes, uh, but I'm sure it's

probably something like pillars fun.org.

:

00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:43,751

Ah, there you go.

:

00:59:43,756 --> 00:59:43,885

That's great.

:

00:59:44,105 --> 00:59:44,325

Wow.

:

00:59:44,915 --> 00:59:45,685

Alright, family.

:

00:59:46,015 --> 00:59:49,690

Thank you for joining us for another

episode of the American Muslim Podcast.

:

00:59:50,140 --> 00:59:54,280

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:

01:00:25,735 --> 01:00:29,335

And finally support those who

are serving our communities.

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01:00:29,665 --> 01:00:33,475

Over 70% of Bean students receive

scholarships to continue their work

:

01:00:33,475 --> 01:00:38,335

in chaplaincy education, nonprofit

leadership, and just about any area

:

01:00:38,335 --> 01:00:41,155

of community involvement and support.

:

01:00:41,485 --> 01:00:46,945

So contribute to the Muhammad Ali

Scholarship fund@bayanonline.org.

:

01:00:47,395 --> 01:00:51,835

Invest in holistic community,

wellness, leadership, and care.

:

01:00:52,405 --> 01:00:53,185

That's it for now.

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01:00:53,605 --> 01:00:55,915

Until next time, I'm your host, IAM Terry.

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Klain, I leave you as I greeted you.

:

01:00:58,855 --> 01:01:02,754

I said Ium made the peace that

only God can give be upon you.

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About the Podcast

The American Muslim Podcast
The voices, stories, and perspectives shaping the American Muslim Experience
The American Muslim Podcast is your gateway to exploring the diverse and dynamic stories shaping the American Muslim experience. Hosted by Imam Tariq I. El-Amin, and brought to you by Bayan On Demand, this podcast shines a spotlight on the voices of leaders who are making a profound impact in their communities—many of whom are students, alumni, and visiting faculty of Bayan Islamic Graduate School.

From imams and chaplains to Islamic school leaders, teachers, scholars, and non-profit pioneers, we celebrate those who dedicate themselves to serving others. These inspiring individuals include masjid leaders, community activists, and youth mentors who exemplify the values of faith, compassion, and resilience in their work.

Through insightful conversations and authentic narratives, we explore how these leaders navigate faith, identity, and service, offering a unique perspective on the evolving role of American Muslims in shaping society. Join us to uncover the stories of those who lead with purpose and embody the transformative mission of Bayan.

About your host

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Tariq El-Amin

Imam Tariq I. El-Amin serves as the Resident Imam of Masjid Al-Taqwa in Chicago, IL. He is the founder of the Chicago Black Muslim History Tour and the former host of Sound Vision's Radio Islam, a nightly talk radio program that aired in the Chicago market. Tariq is a recipient of the Muhammad Ali Scholarship and earned a Master of Divinity in Islamic Chaplaincy from Bayan Islamic Graduate School in 2022. He is currently pursuing a Doctorate of Ministry in Islamic Community Leadership at Bayan, with expected completion in 2026. Tariq is also a producer of the award-winning UIC Black Excellence podcast, hosted by Dr. Aisha El-Amin, and lends his voice to narrating audiobooks.