Leadership & Wellness with Dr. Kameelah: Faith, Healing & Community

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As Salaamu Alaikum may the peace

that only God can give be upon you.

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Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast.

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I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin and each

week I bring to you a new conversation

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with a different leader serving

their community in a variety of ways.

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This week we are pleased to have Dr.

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Kameelah Mu'min Oseguera joining us.

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She is the founding executive director

of Muslim Wellness Foundation.

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And an assistant professor of

Psychology and Muslim studies

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at Chicago Theological Seminary.

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Her teaching research and clinical

areas of expertise include mental health

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stigma in faith and minority communities,

healing justice and faith-based activism,

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black Muslim psychology, and black

Muslim intersectional invisibility.

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Welcome to the American

Muslim Podcast, Dr.

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Kameelah.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Wa Alaikum As Salaam Imam

Tariq thanks for having me.

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It is great to have you here.

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And one of the things that we

always tell our guests is that,

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you are the main attraction, right?

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It is.

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It is your work, it's your journey.

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So we invite you to be as open, as

transparent, as you are comfortable

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being and sharing that journey.

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And with that said, I want to

ask you, is there an event,

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a memory and a, a, a mentor?

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Is there something that you can

look back to in your history and

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point to that as a formative?

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Event that has brought you

to where you are today.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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So, easy softball question to begin with,

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Imam Tariq: right?

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Dr. Kameelah:

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there, there's so many moments to

choose from, but, can I share two.

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Imam Tariq: As many as you want to.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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so I'll say the first that, you go

through like a mental Rolodex, right?

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This impactful, meaningful moments and

always the first that comes to mind

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is, a memory of attending protests

in Brooklyn with Mya Amina Baya.

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I had to be around seven or

eight years old, because I, I can

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remember, this case was related

to the assault on Tiawana Brawley.

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and it was Reverend Al Sharpton that

were leading those protests in Brooklyn.

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and this protest happened to be at the

Slave Theater in Brooklyn, in Bed-Stuy.

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and I just, I, what I can recall is.

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Sort of the energy and of the community.

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and so even in protesting violence

happening, just the spirit of warmth,

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of I think strength that I can remember.

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and I remember at one of those

protests, someone asked me what

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I wanted to be when I grew up.

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And like I said, this is

maybe like: 1985

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So I might have been in

first or second grade.

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And I remember saying I wanted to be a

professor of African American history

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and I wanted to be a psychologist.

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And that was based on the work that

I saw my mother do in the community.

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I grew up in Massa, Tako in Brooklyn.

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And, my mother was very much involved.

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and this was a community that

was very much connected to the

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wider African American community.

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and in those days working to

like clean up the blocks, right?

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and so when I remember just that, that

energy, that spirit, that commitment,

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that dedication, That stands out for

me as a pivotal, like formative time.

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And the reason that I said I wanted to

be a psychologist is that my mother, like

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me, read a lot and, owned a lot of books.

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Jay Rogers, books on Marcus Garvey

Islam, and she owned books by Naim Akbar.

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and so that at the time was sort of

the only sort of representative sort of

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figure that I had of what does it mean

to talk about African consciousness,

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psychology, talk about knowledge of self.

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it was through the books

that my mother owned, right?

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and Naim ABAs work stood out to me.

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so I think someone looked at me like.

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This little girl's like, I'm gonna

be a professor and a psychologist.

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and here I'm today,

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Imam Tariq: right here, here we are today.

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So

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Alhamdulillah for my mother, right?

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For the community that, that nourished me.

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and didn't dismiss right?

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An eight year old's dream of

becoming both those things.

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so.

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Imam Tariq: So, so you, the protest

and the basically kind of the

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knowledge environment that you

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Yes.

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Imam Tariq: Grew up

in, had access to that.

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These are things that were

definitely formative for you.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Absolutely.

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and I would say connected to

that, is a second sort of.

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Memory or formative relationship?

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with my late mentor May lobby,

be pleased with her, Dr.

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Deborah Majeed.

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and she wrote so much about

Muslim womanist philosophy, right?

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Sort of founded that

idea and that concept.

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and that being rooted in, African American

Muslims, women's understanding of the

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Koran, of the Sunna and of the community.

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And that our lives are, just contain so

much wisdom and ways of knowing, because

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of being a black Muslim woman, right?

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what kind of perspectives and experiences

and interpretations right of our faith

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do we bring because of those identities?

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and so.

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she, returned to a law in 2022 in

March and just the significant loss,

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in terms of just knowledge in the

community is always devastating, right?

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When we lose a scholar and an elder.

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but for me, she was also, another

mother like figure that supported both.

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Me personally and professionally, and

who I looked up to as one who balanced

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the complexity of community work, of

leadership, of scholarship, and she

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did it with such grace and kindness and

warmth, that, I see the memory of, protest

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with my mother and with my mentor, Dr.

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Majeed as.

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Really strong bookings.

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For who I am and who I

believe I'm becoming.

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Imam Tariq: Now as a first grader, first

or second grader, seeing yourself in

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the future as a psychologist, right?

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Yes.

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Imam Tariq: so you also served,

as a chaplain at one point?

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Imam Tariq: Did you see that as a

stop along the way to, to that goal?

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Or, or was that something

that was separate, from that?

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Again, interesting question.

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you're making me have to dig deep.

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'cause I wouldn't see it or

frame it as a stop along the way.

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I do believe that in many of the

roles that I've taken on in, in my

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life, thus far, it has been, it has

felt like an obligation that was

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presented to me, and kind of a request.

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From the creator to serve

my community, right?

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Not just to talk about my community or say

that I'm invested in community wellbeing,

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but what does it mean for me to.

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Apply my skills, right?

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My perspectives, towards

the service and care, right?

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Of the people that I'm concerned

about, the people that I love.

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and so in two, I wanna say in 2013, I

was asked to serve as the Muslim chaplain

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of the University of Pennsylvania.

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I.

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and the request was made by a

dear friend, who's still the

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current university chaplain.

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Reverend Dr.

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Chas Howard.

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we had known each other

since we were 18 years old.

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So I'm, I graduated from the University

of Pennsylvania in: 2000

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on my 25 year reunion from college.

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Yeah.

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And, and I had done work around

campus, thinking through, what does

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it mean to serve the Muslims on

the campus, that I graduated from.

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And he was like, you know what, sister,

I'm gonna ask you something, right?

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and I wanted just don't say no yet.

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just hear me out.

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and I had, I hadn't conserved

in that capacity, right?

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But.

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by then I had already started

to do work as a clinician.

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two years prior I had founded

Muslim Wellness Foundation.

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I was still living in Philadelphia.

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and he said, we need someone right

to care for our Muslim students.

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Would you accept my invitation?

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and I didn't say no 'cause he

asked me not to right away.

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but I, this was very early in.

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I would say the development of

university chaplaincy, For Muslims.

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there, Sohaib Sultan, may

Allah be pleased with him.

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Omar Bajwa at Yale, like these were,

some of the folks that were doing that

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work on campuses, but there wasn't sort

of, a robust understanding, Of how we

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serve the community on a college campus.

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Many people at the time

still had questions, right?

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So what does it mean for

a woman to be a chaplain?

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You can't lead the prayer.

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You can't do this, right?

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You can't give a, so what do you do

if at the time, and maybe still is the

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case, chaplain was synonymous with Imam.

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and so being able to introduce an

understanding about the care that is

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needed, the pastoral care, helping

to facilitate, conversations around

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identity connection, community

belonging, was a really valuable role.

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And notably at that moment, 2013.

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Was the 50th anniversary of the

Muslim Student Association at Penn.

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and one of the founders of that MSA

was our dear brother Sherman Jackson.

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and the first black Muslim

woman to serve as the MSA

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President was elected that year.

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so you have this 50th anniversary of the

MSA coinciding with the first black Muslim

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woman chaplain, the first black woman to

be elected as the president of the MSA.

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So I was like, this is compelling.

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Information and evidence for Yes, this

is an invitation that I have to accept.

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It also happened with.

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The surveillance that was happening of

many university campuses by the NYPD.

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So this information doesn't

emerge until much later.

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but again, all of these, these

moments kind of aligning, is how

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I was introduced to this is a

way right to serve my community.

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Imam Tariq: you mentioned, going back to

some of those formative elements, in your

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upbringing, Naim Akbar, and thinking about

how we self-identify and thinking about

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your upbringing, within the community

of Masjid al-Taqwa in Brooklyn, And.

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Can you speak a bit about how your

understanding of your own identity and

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how you define community, because My

perspective of the way you do that is

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very, broad and, it's not restrictive.

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can you talk about how those

individual elements of how you see

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identity have also impacted the way

you see community in a broader sense?

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Yes.

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so I would agree that based

on my early influences, from.

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Masjid Al-Taqwa community in Brooklyn.

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my childhood and upbringing being very

much influenced by the Darla Law Movement.

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our approach and what I was taught,

as an understanding of community is

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that yes, it includes the community of

believers, but it doesn't stop there.

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It means that if you are a member

of this community, everyone that.

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Resides, worships, travels to this

community, should feel the love

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and protection of the believers.

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And that it is, our way of

living Islam such that anyone

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who comes to this place, I mean.

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And thinking about the

Bed-Stuy neighborhood of

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Brooklyn at the time, right?

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Mid eighties, early nineties.

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it is not the Brooklyn of today, right?

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It is a Brooklyn, in a neighborhood that

was battling, Crime, poverty, right?

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We see, the emergence of gentrification

so many decades later, but then.

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The, what community meant is we have

clearly delineated these boundaries

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in which people are protected, right?

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They are, kind of watched over.

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these are places in which the most

compelling form of Dawa right, is for

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everyone to see Muslims living Islam.

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What does it mean to be concerned

about your neighbor, right?

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Not just your Muslim neighbor, right?

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But everyone who's in that vicinity, there

should be this overwhelming feeling that

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when I go where the Muslims are, I'm good.

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Imam Tariq: That's right.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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when I'm connected and in relationship

to Muslims, my own faith, right?

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Even if it's not Islam, my

own faith is elevated, right?

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Imam Tariq: And

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Dr. Kameelah:

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so.

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Community means that, we are setting

an example of what it means not to

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just say, well, this is what I declare

myself to be, but this is how I live it.

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This is how I demonstrate it.

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This is how you feel when

you're in my presence, right?

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This is what you learn when

you're in relationship with me.

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and so, for many people to.

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Again, not just Muslims to, to hear the

ahan, to hear the call to prayer right?

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From a Brooklyn Mosque.

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to see the brothers lined up on

the street during Juma, right?

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for people to say, you know what,

I'm gonna go to Halal meat market

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because they're not trying to

sell me some day old stuff, right?

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my mother used to own a small

clothing store across from the masjid.

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And so there was this sense of like,

vibrancy, of self-determination.

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again, I just get, what I can

still feel in my body is this

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energy that welcome people.

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Right now we have principles upon which

we live and we need you to abide by.

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Honor.

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and anyone can say, if you were a

Muslim woman right in this neighborhood,

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in this community, you didn't

have to worry about your safety.

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so there was a sense that.

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In this, if we wanna call it

like a Muslim zone, right?

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you'll be greeted, you'll be

cared for, you'll be protected.

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And what is asked for in return is

that you see yourself as part of

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this community, and respected, right?

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and this goes for again,

Muslim or non-Muslim.

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Everyone benefits when we are living our

faith in a way that is pleasing to Allah.

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Imam Tariq: I left something on the

table that I have to go back to.

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Okay.

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you mentioned, and I think it still

is the case, there are more women

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chaplains today, than there were

20 years ago, even 10 years ago.

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But still, I would say the

vast majority still tend to

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be, men In your experience and.

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Not just providing pastoral care,

but as a leader in that space.

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Because there's a leadership element.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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Yes.

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Imam Tariq: I don't want any of

our aspiring chaplains to feel that

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I did not interrogate this point

a little bit, for you to share

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a bit of your experience there.

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What were some of the things

that you point to that you

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can point to that kind of.

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Illustrate what you are able to bring

to that position that possibly your male

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counterpart might not have been able to?

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Dr. Kameelah:

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That's a great question.

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and I would immediately point to

one, the fact that I was an alum.

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I.

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Of the university, right?

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So having, direct experience with

what it meant, right to be on that

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campus, in that city, to be a student.

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and so, being able to incorporate

some of my own lived experience,

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in my leadership role.

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and I think there's.

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As a Muslim woman chaplain, bringing

a level of sensitivity to just how

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nuanced and thoughtful we have to

be about building relationships.

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So leadership is not just, okay,

this is the duty that I perform, but

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it's a process of building rapport,

of trust, of relationship, managing

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conflict, being able to, and not

just moments of crisis, right?

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But moments of.

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Even stagnation, right?

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Feeling people, perhaps not

being as, able right to, to

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point to a sense of belonging.

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That feels very genuine.

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it's the facilitation of.

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Those like relational dynamics, that

becomes a huge part, Of the role.

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Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

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Dr. Kameelah:

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And what I was able to bring, in terms

of my own skill and awareness, I.

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Was that emotional

intelligence, that sensitivity.

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I'm also a clinician, right?

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and at the time I was a

master's level clinician.

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But, being able to understand

that what we're in that role,

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what we're facilitating is not

simply like religious development.

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we're also, this is a time, it's called

Emerging Adulthood, where people are

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exploring questions of spirituality,

of identity, of meaning and purpose.

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: 00:19:26

And so yes, there is, I think

a natural desire to seek.

317

: 00:19:31

More information or clarity

around perhaps the rules that were

318

: 00:19:37

learned right early in childhood.

319

: 00:19:39

if, you know the person was born

into, a Muslim family or for those

320

: 00:19:44

who are seeking to renew, right?

321

: 00:19:46

Their commitment to Islam, right?

322

: 00:19:49

it's, yes, there's the need for.

323

: 00:19:53

Spiritual guidance.

324

: 00:19:54

Sort of like theological reflection.

325

: 00:19:57

and also an understanding

of context of development.

326

: 00:20:00

of how are we creating a space in which

people can be curious about who they are

327

: 00:20:07

and minimize the sense of judgment, right?

328

: 00:20:10

That they think that they're going to

experience as they're on that journey.

329

: 00:20:14

And so I, I think when often

there's this assumption that

330

: 00:20:19

Imam is synonymous with chaplain,

331

: 00:20:22

Imam Tariq: right?

332

: 00:20:22

Dr. Kameelah:

333

: 00:20:22

It reduces the chaplaincy

to perform the prayer.

334

: 00:20:27

These duties maybe do a halah, and not

sufficient enough attention paid to the

335

: 00:20:33

level of skill that's also required to

nurture individuals within that community.

336

: 00:20:38

and so that was, it's like, yes, I'm

not leading the prayer right, but what

337

: 00:20:44

I am facilitating, 'cause we can bring

in a brother to do the prayer, right?

338

: 00:20:48

Like that we can get that covered.

339

: 00:20:51

but what I'm facilitating, especially at

that moment, it was the 50th anniversary

340

: 00:20:55

of the MSA, Is having questions

about how do we define community?

341

: 00:21:00

How do we address some of the longstanding

issues within that community, particularly

342

: 00:21:05

around race and gender, that even I

experienced as an undergrad, right?

343

: 00:21:10

how do we start to tease out

what needs to be done to bring

344

: 00:21:16

some of these issues to light?

345

: 00:21:17

and so, that's what I think I

brought to that role, uniquely.

346

: 00:21:23

And I'll mention this.

347

: 00:21:24

I don't think you asked me

specifically, but I'll say what was

348

: 00:21:27

challenging in that role of leadership

349

: 00:21:32

were I.

350

: 00:21:35

Issues around gender bias.

351

: 00:21:37

mis and r like thinking about who

I am as a black woman in a position

352

: 00:21:41

of power and authority in that role.

353

: 00:21:44

Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

354

: 00:21:44

Dr. Kameelah:

355

: 00:21:44

And, and having others question

rather directly or implicitly if I

356

: 00:21:52

had enough knowledge, if I had enough.

357

: 00:21:57

Gravitas.

358

: 00:21:58

To be in that role and, to experience

Those who are not of my generation.

359

: 00:22:08

questioning, undermining,

Being ambivalent right?

360

: 00:22:12

About whether or not this was, an

appropriate place for a woman to be, for a

361

: 00:22:18

black woman to be, at times those were the

issues that simmered beneath the surface.

362

: 00:22:24

and I was very, I tried to

be as transparent as possible

363

: 00:22:28

in calling it what it was.

364

: 00:22:32

Like we, we can talk about, how we

negotiate the ways decisions are made,

365

: 00:22:37

and let's also be very clear that

some of the opposition, some of the

366

: 00:22:43

difficulty might be stemming from some

biases that have not been acknowledged.

367

: 00:22:51

So.

368

: 00:22:51

I hope that answers your question.

369

: 00:22:53

I didn't wanna go off on a tangent, but

370

: 00:22:55

Imam Tariq: no.

371

: 00:22:55

it did.

372

: 00:22:55

And as you were answering it,

I was actually interrogating

373

: 00:22:59

the framing of my question.

374

: 00:23:01

and that to be

375

: 00:23:05

whether or not your experience or your

awareness of, of gender had actually any

376

: 00:23:13

impact on your performance as a chaplain.

377

: 00:23:17

And on its face, it would seem

that this is one of those positions

378

: 00:23:23

where the individual is either

able to rise to the challenge

379

: 00:23:28

of the position Or not.

380

: 00:23:31

And that gender should

not be a focal point.

381

: 00:23:34

So I think my framing as

I was listening to you.

382

: 00:23:38

I think I would've said it again, more

along the lines of just what did you

383

: 00:23:43

bring to the position and I'm sure you

would have still expressed that there was

384

: 00:23:48

gender bias, Just as a matter of fact.

385

: 00:23:50

But not that it was something, well,

I'm gonna bring this as a woman,

386

: 00:23:54

as opposed to, My male counterpart

would, cannot bring this, because

387

: 00:23:59

Dr. Kameelah:

388

: 00:23:59

Yeah.

389

: 00:23:59

Imam Tariq: that's a

different framing, so,

390

: 00:24:01

Dr. Kameelah:

391

: 00:24:01

Hmm.

392

: 00:24:01

Mm-hmm.

393

: 00:24:03

but I think to be honest, with

the emergence, I think of this

394

: 00:24:09

particular path towards like spiritual

and religious authority, right?

395

: 00:24:15

not in a masjid, right?

396

: 00:24:17

But still in a community,

397

: 00:24:19

Imam Tariq: right?

398

: 00:24:22

Dr. Kameelah:

399

: 00:24:22

I think we are right as Muslim communities

in some ways still struggling, right?

400

: 00:24:28

With how do you affirm and validate

that as a legitimate role that is sort

401

: 00:24:35

of inclusive of that power, right?

402

: 00:24:38

and so what is it, what

does it mean for us to.

403

: 00:24:45

I think ask ourselves, from

the earliest traditions, right?

404

: 00:24:48

We talk about the wives

of the Prophet Mohammed ﷺ.

405

: 00:24:51

peace and blessings be upon him and

the ways that they were the rock.

406

: 00:24:57

Of transmission, of knowledge, of

understanding, of empathy, right?

407

: 00:25:03

Like supported this

growing early movement.

408

: 00:25:06

and then today, right?

409

: 00:25:08

We see within the American context,

still a continued relegation

410

: 00:25:12

of women simply to roles that

have to do with children, right?

411

: 00:25:18

Or teaching right in, in

sort of the elementary sense.

412

: 00:25:21

and so.

413

: 00:25:23

Now that we see the growth

of chaplaincy, right?

414

: 00:25:27

Hospitals, prison, college, campuses.

415

: 00:25:32

It's, I think forcing us to reckon

with how we have not sufficiently

416

: 00:25:38

Address sort of gender and bias

and knowledge and power, right?

417

: 00:25:43

Some communities do

this better than others.

418

: 00:25:46

Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

419

: 00:25:46

Dr. Kameelah:

420

: 00:25:46

But this becomes another, I think,

avenue that really still challenges

421

: 00:25:53

us to say what are we doing well and

where do we still have some work to do?

422

: 00:25:59

So that all of the brilliant women

that are my students at Bayan and CTS.

423

: 00:26:06

They can stumble upon some new

mistakes, some new challenges, but

424

: 00:26:10

that they're not confronted by the

ones that I faced over 15 years ago.

425

: 00:26:14

Right.

426

: 00:26:14

13 years ago.

427

: 00:26:16

but this, if we're not being transparent

about gender and power and author

428

: 00:26:22

within our communities, it's just gonna

manifest itself in a different context.

429

: 00:26:26

And this just happened

to university chaplaincy.

430

: 00:26:29

Imam Tariq: Right now, Dr.

431

: 00:26:30

Kameelah, you wear so many hijabs that

432

: 00:26:34

Dr. Kameelah:

433

: 00:26:34

too many,

434

: 00:26:34

Imam Tariq: it's

435

: 00:26:36

you, you sort of segued into your

role as a clinician, as a professor,

436

: 00:26:41

but this is also connected to your

role as a builder of community.

437

: 00:26:46

As a community keeper.

438

: 00:26:48

tell us a bit about How did Muslim

Wellness Foundation come about?

439

: 00:26:53

Dr. Kameelah:

440

: 00:26:53

So I'm gonna try to give

you like the speed version.

441

: 00:26:56

Yeah.

442

: 00:26:58

Dr. Kameelah:

443

: 00:26:58

So Wilson Wellness Foundation, I

founded in Philadelphia in: 2011

444

: 00:27:02

and that was in response to

my work through the Department

445

: 00:27:06

of Behavioral Health, in the

strategic planning division.

446

: 00:27:09

thinking about how do

we provide competent.

447

: 00:27:13

Sensitive, relevant services

to Muslims in the city.

448

: 00:27:17

and Philadelphia known

to have a huge Right.

449

: 00:27:20

Just At this point, maybe

250,000, Muslims in the city.

450

: 00:27:25

Imam Tariq: Wow.

451

: 00:27:26

Dr. Kameelah:

452

: 00:27:26

But at the time there,

there was no initiative.

453

: 00:27:30

That spoke to the needs and the

concerns and, the challenges

454

: 00:27:34

of Muslims in Philadelphia.

455

: 00:27:36

so it started as the Muslim Wellness

and Recovery Initiative at the

456

: 00:27:41

Department of Behavioral Health,

and quickly grew, for me, just

457

: 00:27:47

understanding how difficult it was for.

458

: 00:27:51

For Muslims to access services

to find competent clinicians.

459

: 00:27:55

So it started as, how do we

reduce mental health stigma?

460

: 00:27:58

How do we increase services?

461

: 00:28:01

how do we ensure that there's

those services are good, right?

462

: 00:28:05

Not just available but good.

463

: 00:28:07

and so from 2011, it grew from

that initiative into a nonprofit.

464

: 00:28:12

and then over time, thinking about not

just the reduction of stigma, but really

465

: 00:28:17

understanding the role of oppression

of white supremacy, of Christian

466

: 00:28:22

hegemony, of Islamophobia, of racism,

How does that also impact the overall

467

: 00:28:28

wellbeing of American Muslims and.

468

: 00:28:33

Beginning in 2015, Muslim Wellness

Foundation, started the first,

469

: 00:28:39

and hosted the first black Muslim

psychology conference, because it was

470

: 00:28:44

very much evident that of the growing

conversations around Muslim mental

471

: 00:28:49

health, the health of black Muslims

in particular was not being discussed.

472

: 00:28:54

and 2015, was the hundred 50th

anniversary of Juneteenth.

473

: 00:28:59

It was, the sort of this, the growing

protest around Black Lives Matter.

474

: 00:29:05

in fact, it was, that summer, the

Baltimore uprising with the murder

475

: 00:29:10

of Freddie Gray, a lot of Muslims in

Baltimore involved in those protests.

476

: 00:29:15

And so it became a way to.

477

: 00:29:17

Like convene, right?

478

: 00:29:19

Black Muslims and say, we're

living at this intersection, right?

479

: 00:29:23

we've been here before, but now

let's talk about how it's impacting

480

: 00:29:27

us psychologically and what

are we doing right in order to.

481

: 00:29:33

Grow the pathways for healing when we're

navigating so much of the anti-blackness,

482

: 00:29:40

broadly within the Muslim community.

483

: 00:29:42

the Islamophobia within the broader

American society, the violence, right?

484

: 00:29:47

Surveillance, detention, all of that.

485

: 00:29:49

and so the Black Muslim Psychology

Conference, we are coming on now this

486

: 00:29:53

year's as a 10th year anniversary, in

Chicago in July to talk about, What

487

: 00:29:59

does it mean for us to still be at this

crossroads now under this administration?

488

: 00:30:05

and how do we look back?

489

: 00:30:06

So our theme is SelebeYoon , which

means, in Wolof the crossroads.

490

: 00:30:10

So how do we look back on 10 years of

scholarship, of thinking, of community

491

: 00:30:16

building to help anchor us in this present

moment and for us to imagine what the

492

: 00:30:21

future of wellness for us could look like.

493

: 00:30:23

And this is happening still

under Muslim Wellness Foundation.

494

: 00:30:27

but in 2021 we established the Omar

Ibn Said Institute for Black Muslim

495

: 00:30:32

Studies and Research right to.

496

: 00:30:35

to really, I think, affirm that black

Muslim psychology is an interdisciplinary

497

: 00:30:41

field of inquiry that is necessary.

498

: 00:30:45

It is urgent.

499

: 00:30:46

and that we need all of the

various expertise and voices of

500

: 00:30:50

the community in order to grow

this as, as a worthwhile inquiry.

501

: 00:30:56

and it brings together again.

502

: 00:30:58

Akbar, right?

503

: 00:30:59

It's like we, we've

been doing this, right?

504

: 00:31:01

Talking about knowledge of

stuff, talking about who we are.

505

: 00:31:03

but we need to formalize this under,

a banner and an initiative that

506

: 00:31:08

says the wellness of black Muslims.

507

: 00:31:11

The healing for black Muslims

actually enhances the ability

508

: 00:31:16

of everyone we are connected to.

509

: 00:31:19

To heal and to grow and to

feel a sense of belonging.

510

: 00:31:23

And so let's talk about us, right?

511

: 00:31:25

Let's talk about who we are and what

we've done and where we're trying to go.

512

: 00:31:30

so my work with Muslim One Foundation,

with the Omar Ben Site Institute with

513

: 00:31:34

the Black Muslim Psychology Conference,

has been some of the most rewarding work.

514

: 00:31:39

Of my life, being able to, curate a

weekend of reflection, of challenge, of

515

: 00:31:48

discussion and of love and care, right?

516

: 00:31:51

For the communities that

are closest to my heart.

517

: 00:31:54

Is not just an obligation,

it's an honor, right?

518

: 00:31:58

That I look forward to every year.

519

: 00:32:00

because my people love to

smile and talk and laugh.

520

: 00:32:04

. Time

521

: 00:32:04

together.

522

: 00:32:05

and so while we're focused on,

what the difficult issues are,

523

: 00:32:10

we enjoy ourselves, right?

524

: 00:32:12

we celebrate who we are

and and for that, right?

525

: 00:32:16

That we have this opportunity to.

526

: 00:32:19

both be challenged and to be cared for.

527

: 00:32:22

Imam Tariq: and I have to say,

as an attendee, my first time,

528

: 00:32:26

at the Black Muslim Psychology

Conference was: 2017

529

: 00:32:30

And, it was transformational for me.

530

: 00:32:33

So this is one of those

spaces, it is affirming.

531

: 00:32:36

it is life giving.

532

: 00:32:39

If now I wanna connect back to this idea

of community and an expansive view of it.

533

: 00:32:44

you're doing some work now.

534

: 00:32:46

you're the primary researcher.

535

: 00:32:48

The, the engine behind, research

that I think it embodies this idea.

536

: 00:32:56

Of the stewardship that the

African American Muslim experience

537

: 00:33:01

here at its best embodies it

seeks to take responsibility

538

: 00:33:07

and and exhibit stewardship.

539

: 00:33:10

Dr. Kameelah:

540

: 00:33:10

Yes.

541

: 00:33:10

Imam Tariq: Irrespective of faith

tradition, but for our communities.

542

: 00:33:13

Can you talk about this work

that you're doing, this research.

543

: 00:33:18

Dr. Kameelah:

544

: 00:33:18

gladly.

545

: 00:33:19

I think a, again, it falls within

the realm of, work that I am.

546

: 00:33:26

I have so much gratitude to Allah,

subhana wa'ta'ala for giving me the

547

: 00:33:30

opportunities, but also the experience

and the expertise right to lead

548

: 00:33:35

conversations and the exploring black

Christian views of American Muslims.

549

: 00:33:39

Project began in 2020.

550

: 00:33:43

And was, catalyzed by research,

done by the Institute for Social

551

: 00:33:47

Policy and understanding around how

are black Christians experiencing

552

: 00:33:53

or perceiving, their biases,

attitudes about Muslims in general.

553

: 00:34:00

And through this research, we found

that black Christians have many.

554

: 00:34:08

Complex thoughts about who we're

right as family members, as neighbors.

555

: 00:34:14

some of the key findings I'll state

really quickly through focus groups,

556

: 00:34:19

and individual interviews over, over

a year from March,: 2020

557

: 00:34:25

showed that family media and pop culture.

558

: 00:34:31

And community were the three

primary influences on black

559

: 00:34:35

Christian views of Muslims.

560

: 00:34:37

Those black Christian views were

specifically related to their

561

: 00:34:42

relationships and experiences primarily

with other black people who are Muslim.

562

: 00:34:49

So what we found is that based on.

563

: 00:34:54

Those responses to our questions

right around what is your

564

: 00:34:58

early experience of Muslims?

565

: 00:35:00

Like, who do you know,

who are you connected to?

566

: 00:35:02

what's shaping your attitudes, right?

567

: 00:35:05

Your beliefs about Muslims.

568

: 00:35:07

What we found kind of, I think

what summarized is that work in

569

: 00:35:10

a nutshell is, the phenomenon of

high familiarity and low knowledge.

570

: 00:35:17

So my cousin is a Muslim.

571

: 00:35:19

I got, my good girlfriend

down the street, right?

572

: 00:35:23

Like I know Muslims, right?

573

: 00:35:25

High familiarity, right?

574

: 00:35:26

I know these people, right?

575

: 00:35:28

They're connected to me in so many

different ways, but low knowledge

576

: 00:35:32

when it comes to Islam, right?

577

: 00:35:35

So, I know you're a Muslim, but

I don't know what you believe.

578

: 00:35:38

I know you are a Muslim, but I am

actually very, ignorant of even the

579

: 00:35:45

history of Islam in this country.

580

: 00:35:47

Ignorant of the history of

Islam in West Africa, right?

581

: 00:35:52

And so.

582

: 00:35:53

There's this sense of like,

I know who you are, right?

583

: 00:35:57

Like, oh, you're my man.

584

: 00:35:58

You're my homie, my girlfriend.

585

: 00:36:01

But I don't know what you believe.

586

: 00:36:02

I don't know why you pray that way.

587

: 00:36:05

and there's this sense that our shared

racial identity is sufficient enough for

588

: 00:36:10

us to build our relationship on, right?

589

: 00:36:12

And in fact.

590

: 00:36:14

Talk of spiritual diversity diminishes

our shared connection, our sense of unity.

591

: 00:36:21

And so what we responded to in gathering

that information from black Christians

592

: 00:36:27

was a request from black Christians.

593

: 00:36:30

We need to know more.

594

: 00:36:32

We need to understand better what you

believe and how that informs how you live.

595

: 00:36:37

And we need to do a better job of

appreciating the contributions of

596

: 00:36:43

black Muslims in society, right?

597

: 00:36:46

not just in terms of the Muslim

community, but in society.

598

: 00:36:50

and I will never forget one of our

black Christian, pastors, he said, I

599

: 00:36:55

am a better Christian because of Islam.

600

: 00:36:59

Right When I understand the ways

that Muslims actually challenge me

601

: 00:37:04

to live my faith in a very sincere

way, because I see how devout and

602

: 00:37:09

disciplined and focused they are.

603

: 00:37:11

I.

604

: 00:37:11

I, I have to match.

605

: 00:37:13

And this is what even Islam teaches us.

606

: 00:37:14

Like you compete in righteousness.

607

: 00:37:16

Imam Tariq: That's right.

608

: 00:37:17

And

609

: 00:37:17

Dr. Kameelah:

610

: 00:37:17

so when you said I'm a better Christian

because of Islam, and how do we help other

611

: 00:37:24

black Christians understand our shared

connection, but also the biases, right?

612

: 00:37:29

And the attitudes and assumptions

about Islam that we have because

613

: 00:37:35

of our own Christian privilege.

614

: 00:37:38

So to be, for a black Christian, to

be in a position of being a racial

615

: 00:37:43

minority, And having that history,

that shared history of violence,

616

: 00:37:47

Of discrimination, but also having

religious privilege at the same time.

617

: 00:37:52

How is it informed the way that

I interact and assume, and also

618

: 00:37:58

share power with those who.

619

: 00:38:01

are in my community,

but worship differently.

620

: 00:38:04

so the exploring black Christian views

of American Muslims, again, some of the,

621

: 00:38:09

I think, dynamic work that, I have felt

called to do and just appreciate how

622

: 00:38:15

much it has elevated some of the nuances

around race and religion and power.

623

: 00:38:21

Right, and community.

624

: 00:38:23

Imam Tariq: one of the things that I

would mention, and I would love to,

625

: 00:38:26

hear your take on this, The responses

from some have been, we're all black.

626

: 00:38:32

Let's just focus on our blackness.

627

: 00:38:35

Yes.

628

: 00:38:35

But in that there is also a removal of

a very important component and element

629

: 00:38:42

of our survival and our thriving.

630

: 00:38:46

And that is our spirituality, our

of being able to see ourselves

631

: 00:38:50

beyond, the physical self and our

connection, right connection to God.

632

: 00:38:55

However, in whatever

names we, we call on God.

633

: 00:38:58

So do you also see in this an invitation

to kind of reimagine the way that

634

: 00:39:05

we see ourselves in one another more

completely as spiritual beings and

635

: 00:39:09

find what is that actual connection?

636

: 00:39:14

Dr. Kameelah:

637

: 00:39:14

Absolutely 100%.

638

: 00:39:16

I think this conversation around black

Christian views, but also of privilege, of

639

: 00:39:23

bias, of what, what has caused division.

640

: 00:39:27

and conflict within communities, is one

I think for us to correct the history.

641

: 00:39:32

and that's, our communities have

always included spiritual diversity.

642

: 00:39:38

we weren't all kidnapped and

enslaved here as Christians.

643

: 00:39:44

And so even when we shared that about

scholars have said that about a third

644

: 00:39:48

of enslaved Africans were Muslim.

645

: 00:39:50

So how many of us in our communities

are descendant of people who

646

: 00:39:54

called themselves Muslim?

647

: 00:39:56

And to be able to acknowledge and

honor that lineage in the same way.

648

: 00:40:01

That I honor and acknowledge the Christian

lineage that also lives within me.

649

: 00:40:07

and when I, I think that when we can do

that, it gives us so much power rooted in

650

: 00:40:15

the wisdom of all of those ancestors, the

wisdom of those who, like you said, called

651

: 00:40:21

God by many different names, but still

influenced and informed how we retained.

652

: 00:40:29

Our own humanity through that

dehumanizing experience, right?

653

: 00:40:34

It was all of these forms of

praying to the creator, right?

654

: 00:40:39

Praying for safety and protection

and mercy from a creator, despite

655

: 00:40:46

those circumstances and so.

656

: 00:40:48

For us to, I think, set

the record straight.

657

: 00:40:52

That they have, part of the

beauty and the power of our

658

: 00:40:55

community has been this diversity.

659

: 00:40:58

and when we diminish it and say, well,

let's just focus on blackness, right?

660

: 00:41:02

It's like, well, you are assuming

that black means one thing.

661

: 00:41:06

That's

662

: 00:41:07

Imam Tariq: right.

663

: 00:41:07

Dr. Kameelah:

664

: 00:41:07

You're assuming that there's no variation

and we know that, all created us right

665

: 00:41:12

as tribes so that we know one another.

666

: 00:41:15

And so that, for me, that feels, not

only does it diminish the potential

667

: 00:41:21

power of our relationships currently.

668

: 00:41:24

It Whitewashes history.

669

: 00:41:27

Which proves, an accurate

telling of who we are, right?

670

: 00:41:31

As people who came to these

ES as enslaved, was that.

671

: 00:41:35

Muslims were there, they were part

of the slave, enslaved uprisings.

672

: 00:41:39

They were part of the resistance

part of the people who, in whatever

673

: 00:41:43

way possible, tried to retain

those aspects of their identity.

674

: 00:41:47

so let's honor all of it and

not just a select portion.

675

: 00:41:51

In doing so, I think it, we help.

676

: 00:41:53

We can reclaim the power, some of the

power that was stolen, and elevates

677

: 00:41:58

us in terms of what can we do now,

as a community to not just survive,

678

: 00:42:04

but to thrive into the future.

679

: 00:42:06

Imam Tariq: I have to remember that I'm

also wearing a different hat right now.

680

: 00:42:11

So yes, I'm in my, I'm in

my host and producer, mode.

681

: 00:42:15

I acknowledge that also one of the hats

that I wear is working with outreach

682

: 00:42:20

with the Day of Learning project

that you've led and are leading.

683

: 00:42:25

there is a big event that is coming

up, but more importantly, this is

684

: 00:42:30

also a part of a string of events, a

series of events where you are sharing.

685

: 00:42:36

this information with our black Christian,

brother and sisters, the family, right?

686

: 00:42:42

Dr. Kameelah:

687

: 00:42:42

Yes.

688

: 00:42:42

Imam Tariq: could you say a

few words about, about, an

689

: 00:42:45

event that, that's coming up?

690

: 00:42:47

Dr. Kameelah:

691

: 00:42:47

Yes.

692

: 00:42:48

So our day of learning is in

direct response to our black

693

: 00:42:52

Christian, participants, right?

694

: 00:42:54

Respondents who said,

how can we know more?

695

: 00:42:57

How can we do some really thoughtful

introspection about our own positions and

696

: 00:43:02

privilege and, lack of knowledge, right?

697

: 00:43:05

how can we grow in that area?

698

: 00:43:07

and so the day of learning,

is just that, it's.

699

: 00:43:10

Sharing about this research, the themes

that emerged with other black Christians.

700

: 00:43:15

and we are inviting on Saturday May 10th,

inviting folks into a conversation and a

701

: 00:43:21

dialogue, about not just these findings,

but what does it mean for us now, right?

702

: 00:43:26

to know and to grow with one another

and to challenge each other, right?

703

: 00:43:30

In helping to understand the

ways that we have not been.

704

: 00:43:37

As connected as we could be.

705

: 00:43:40

And what kind of relationship building,

and honesty and humility does it take

706

: 00:43:44

for us to get to that point where,

our bonds are strong and so that our

707

: 00:43:49

shared commitments right to community

building can happen more effectively.

708

: 00:43:54

so May 10th, it's gonna be hosted by.

709

: 00:43:58

Help me out on this one.

710

: 00:44:01

Imam Tariq: Grant.

711

: 00:44:01

Grant Memorial.

712

: 00:44:03

Dr. Kameelah:

713

: 00:44:03

Yes.

714

: 00:44:04

Okay.

715

: 00:44:05

and this is, I think exemplifies

those kinds of, the kinds of

716

: 00:44:10

curiosity and humility that.

717

: 00:44:14

I think is essential for us to, as black

Christians, Muslims, to come together

718

: 00:44:20

and to say, we say that we have shared

values, and commitment to community.

719

: 00:44:25

Now what does it mean for us

to really put a spotlight on

720

: 00:44:29

those areas that we can improve?

721

: 00:44:31

and so I'm really excited to lead this

day of learning again, to talk about

722

: 00:44:35

some of the research findings and

also what do we do with what we know.

723

: 00:44:39

I think this is the essential question.

724

: 00:44:41

How do we continue to, dedicate time

to activities that say, this is what

725

: 00:44:50

I now know, and these are the action

steps that are necessary in us in

726

: 00:44:54

order for us to continue, to build,

strong relationships to do the work.

727

: 00:44:59

so May 10th, it is free.

728

: 00:45:01

It is open.

729

: 00:45:03

we want people to, again, to

join in a spirit of humility and

730

: 00:45:07

curiosity, and honesty, right?

731

: 00:45:09

For this conversation around again,

race and religion and community.

732

: 00:45:15

Imam Tariq: As a professor,

can you tell folks about some

733

: 00:45:18

of the classes that you teach?

734

: 00:45:21

And, and before you do so, I wanna

remind you, listening family.

735

: 00:45:26

If you get yourself a subscription to

Bayan on demand for $10 a month, you

736

: 00:45:31

will be able to partake of these classes

right at your leisure, on your schedule.

737

: 00:45:37

And you can get in and listen and develop

and benefit from, the scholarship,

738

: 00:45:43

the education, the insight of Dr.

739

: 00:45:45

Kameelah, along with, the rest of

the, the Bayan, staff and faculty.

740

: 00:45:49

But, so, Dr.

741

: 00:45:51

Kameelah.

742

: 00:45:53

Dr. Kameelah:

743

: 00:45:53

Yes.

744

: 00:45:53

So I am an assistant professor of

Psychology and Muslim studies at

745

: 00:45:58

Chicago Theological Seminary and

beyond Islamic Graduate school.

746

: 00:46:02

I have been fortunate enough to

one, be the first Muslim faculty

747

: 00:46:08

member, at the institution.

748

: 00:46:10

and the classes that I teach, ULA are.

749

: 00:46:13

Really just rich ways for me to

integrate the community work, the

750

: 00:46:18

clinical work, understanding of context.

751

: 00:46:21

and so I teach self-care and

self-development for spiritual leaders.

752

: 00:46:25

and this is the first class that

I taught for band and is really

753

: 00:46:30

a deep dive, truly and intensive,

on understanding some of our.

754

: 00:46:35

Early influences and relationships,

self-concept that lead right us to

755

: 00:46:41

answer this call, this tug, to serve

community in this way and to realistically

756

: 00:46:46

assess the kinds of boundaries and

skills and communication that's

757

: 00:46:52

necessary to sustain the leadership.

758

: 00:46:54

it can be a very exhausting,

taxing, difficult

759

: 00:46:59

during

760

: 00:47:00

Imam Tariq: It was, it was, but

beautiful, but so beautiful.

761

: 00:47:03

Dr. Kameelah:

762

: 00:47:03

and this is, I tell folks, that if you

join my self-care class, I can almost

763

: 00:47:09

promise you it will be difficult.

764

: 00:47:11

Yet incredibly rewarding.

765

: 00:47:13

Yes.

766

: 00:47:13

because what I'm asking of my students.

767

: 00:47:17

Is to demonstrate a commitment to

their own growth that is comparable

768

: 00:47:22

to the commitment that they

express to the community, right?

769

: 00:47:25

So you are aware of your own needs

and what's motivating, right?

770

: 00:47:30

What unresolved issues are motivating

the way in which you approach your role.

771

: 00:47:36

If it's to be a martyr, to be sacrificial,

to have no boundaries whatsoever,

772

: 00:47:40

you will very quickly burn out.

773

: 00:47:42

You will be of no good

in service to anyone.

774

: 00:47:45

and so I've taught this class

for the last seven years.

775

: 00:47:49

and so it's, I think the one class

that I'm known for at Ban, and it

776

: 00:47:54

is now required so you will not get

through Ban Islamic graduate school

777

: 00:47:59

without coming through my classroom.

778

: 00:48:02

And I'll welcome you with open arms

and some really hard questions.

779

: 00:48:07

I also teach, a course called

In Jesus name, the Psychology of

780

: 00:48:10

Christian Hegemony and Religious

Oppression in the United States.

781

: 00:48:14

I teach, Pastoral theology and care,

and a course called, Anti-Racism

782

: 00:48:19

as Spiritual Practice, right?

783

: 00:48:21

So again, thinking about how all of

the traditions, that we can draw from

784

: 00:48:25

within this context, can again, motivate

and inspire, us to engage right as

785

: 00:48:31

believers in social justice and equality.

786

: 00:48:35

I teach about four, or five classes

actually in the fall for the

787

: 00:48:39

first time I'm leading the D.Min

788

: 00:48:40

class, on ministry in the public square.

789

: 00:48:43

So this will incorporate against some

of the self-care aspects, but also

790

: 00:48:47

what does it mean for us to lead again

in this context, in this day and age,

791

: 00:48:53

and to do so with integrity, right?

792

: 00:48:55

Knowing some of the risks.

793

: 00:48:56

but what I tell my students,

especially in my anti-racism course,

794

: 00:49:00

is, what white supremacy does is it

attempts to position itself as God.

795

: 00:49:08

And so when we're thinking about our

commitments, our values, our principles,

796

: 00:49:16

we must always be dedicated right

to not white supremacy as God, not

797

: 00:49:22

white supremacy, as sort of master,

but to our commitments, right?

798

: 00:49:27

As Muslims to Allah subhana'wa'tala'

you cannot serve two masters, right?

799

: 00:49:31

Imam Tariq: That's right.

800

: 00:49:31

Dr. Kameelah:

801

: 00:49:31

And so.

802

: 00:49:32

To what and to whom are you devoted,

must be the question that we ask

803

: 00:49:36

ourselves, and what I would pose to our

students as emerging leaders, right?

804

: 00:49:43

Constantly asking yourself to what

and to whom am I devoted, right?

805

: 00:49:48

And in my devotion, in my service.

806

: 00:49:51

What do I need in order to do that

in a responsible and sustainable way?

807

: 00:49:56

So for those who are thinking about

coming to Bay, who, you have friends

808

: 00:50:00

who are going and they tell you

about their classes and you are

809

: 00:50:03

like, Ooh, that sounds interesting.

810

: 00:50:05

Stop waiting.

811

: 00:50:05

Imam Tariq: That's right.

812

: 00:50:07

That's right.

813

: 00:50:07

Just.

814

: 00:50:08

Dr. Kameelah:

815

: 00:50:08

So sign up, the subscription

for the classes.

816

: 00:50:12

You can get a little flavor, a little

tease about what it feels like to be

817

: 00:50:16

in, band, classroom and an intensive.

818

: 00:50:18

and then just do it.

819

: 00:50:20

Just, stop hanging on your friends, be

like, oh, can you email me the syllabus so

820

: 00:50:24

I can buy the books That No, you yourself.

821

: 00:50:29

That's right.

822

: 00:50:30

You apply.

823

: 00:50:31

what I have always, and I'll

say this, it's the last thing.

824

: 00:50:34

What I have always loved about Van

is it's commitment to nurturing a

825

: 00:50:39

diverse set of leaders and bringing in.

826

: 00:50:43

Such, I mean, just reading sort of

the faculty list, people who are

827

: 00:50:47

affiliated with teaching, and providing

this information and knowledge.

828

: 00:50:52

you're learning from the very best, right?

829

: 00:50:55

across many different, disciplines.

830

: 00:50:58

and so when you have access to.

831

: 00:51:01

Both, a faculty and a student community

that is focused on learning and

832

: 00:51:08

understanding how to live out right.

833

: 00:51:11

Our, live out our faith in community with

others who may not share it but being able

834

: 00:51:17

to lead very in, in very relevant ways.

835

: 00:51:21

I don't know where you can get Right.

836

: 00:51:23

A better grounding and

connection and community, of

837

: 00:51:27

learners, but also educators.

838

: 00:51:29

so again, for those who are kind of

on the fence, well, I don't know,

839

: 00:51:33

and I work full time and talk to

somebody who's already a student.

840

: 00:51:37

It is possible, and I would say it will

be a decision you will never regret.

841

: 00:51:46

Imam Tariq: You heard it folks, Dr.

842

: 00:51:47

Camilla movement, RA,

she has laid it down.

843

: 00:51:50

She has told you what it is, and I

can say this as, as a student of her,

844

: 00:51:54

of her class, the, self-care man.

845

: 00:51:58

So of all of you who are already serving

communities, matter of fact, in any

846

: 00:52:02

leadership position, this is a must.

847

: 00:52:05

A must take.

848

: 00:52:06

you will definitely investigate yourself.

849

: 00:52:08

You will figure out some things,

but it will, and it's not gonna be

850

: 00:52:11

easy, but it is absolutely worth it.

851

: 00:52:14

So, Dr.

852

: 00:52:15

Kameelah, I want to thank you again

for taking the time to come on the

853

: 00:52:19

American Muslim Podcast and to share

absolutely a bit of your light with us.

854

: 00:52:25

we pray that a lot continues to

protect you, bless all of the work

855

: 00:52:29

that you're doing, because we know.

856

: 00:52:32

with your success, we successful

right along with you, so

857

: 00:52:38

thank you.

858

: 00:52:38

Thank you so

859

: 00:52:39

Dr. Kameelah:

860

: 00:52:39

much.

861

: 00:52:40

It's always a pleasure.

862

: 00:52:43

Imam Tariq: All right, family.

863

: 00:52:44

That is it for today's episode.

864

: 00:52:46

I thank you for joining us for

another edition of the American Muslim

865

: 00:52:49

Podcast presented by Bayan on Demand.

866

: 00:52:52

We thank our guest, Dr.

867

: 00:52:53

Kameelah Mu'min Oseguera and we

invite you to join our community of

868

: 00:52:57

learners by going to bayan online.org

869

: 00:53:00

and getting your very own all

access pass to Bayan on demand.

870

: 00:53:05

$10 a month gets you access to 30 classes.

871

: 00:53:09

As a matter of fact, it's more than 30.

872

: 00:53:11

. We just added two new classes, , and

we'll continue to add and you'll still

873

: 00:53:14

have it available to you for $10 a month.

874

: 00:53:18

Alright, family.

875

: 00:53:18

The last thing I want

to throw at you is this.

876

: 00:53:20

If you find value in these conversations,

in the experiences that are shared by

877

: 00:53:25

our guests, please share and subscribe.

878

: 00:53:28

We want to continue to grow this platform,

and we can only do that with your help.

879

: 00:53:32

So if you find value and benefit,

subscribe, share wherever

880

: 00:53:37

you're at in whatever platform.

881

: 00:53:39

I think that's it for me.

882

: 00:53:40

We will see you again

next week inaha'Allah.

883

: 00:53:42

With God's permission, I leave you as I

greeted you, As Salaamu Alaikum may the

884

: 00:53:46

peace that only God can give be upon you.