Bridging Theology, Science, and Philosophy with Dr. Ozgur Koca
Bridging Theology, Science, and Philosophy with Dr. Ozgur Koca
In this episode of the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan on Demand, host Imam Tariq El-Amin interviews Dr. Ozgur Koca, a faculty member at Bayan Islamic Graduate School. Dr. Koca shares his academic journey from physics and mathematics to philosophy, theology, and Islamic metaphysics. They delve into the intersection of Islamic thought and modern science, discussing causality, free will, divine justice, and miracles. Dr. Koca also talks about his upcoming books and reflects on the importance of interdisciplinary learning in understanding divine presence and fostering spiritual growth.
00:00 Introduction to Bayan on Demand
00:56 Meet Your Host: Imam Tariq El-Amin
01:22 Introducing Dr. Ozgur Koca
02:00 Dr. Koca's Academic Journey
04:15 Translating Classical Islamic Texts
05:13 The Polymath Tradition in Islam
07:33 Audience and Purpose of Dr. Koca's Work
09:19 Exploring Causality in Islamic Thought
15:21 Mu'tazilite and Ash'arite Views on Causality
24:25 Participatory Accounts of Causality
27:20 Divine Freedom and Human Agency
28:28 Contemporary Discussions on Religion and Science
29:39 Reconciling Divine and Natural Causality
30:44 Criteria for a Theory of Causality
32:22 Islamic Thought on Miracles
33:59 Mu'tazilite and Ash'arite Perspectives
38:29 Participatory Causality and Miracles
43:13 Spiritual Implications of Causality
50:06 Bayan Islamic Graduate School Experience
53:51 Future Projects and Final Thoughts
Islam, Causality, and Science
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Transcript
Dr Ozgur K
[:[00:00:22] Imam Tariq: Bayan on Demand provides accessible knowledge for just $10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Baan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to baan online.org. That's B-A-Y-A-N online.org to get more information.
[:[00:00:56] Imam Tariq: As Salaamu Alaikum, May the peace that only God can [00:01:00] give be upon you. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast, presented by Bayan on Demand, where we explore the journeys, insights, and impacts of leader shaping the intellectual, spiritual, and cultural landscape of Muslims and America. And they do this through their service, activism, scholarship, and lived experience.
[:[00:01:55] Imam Tariq: As Salaamu Alaikum Dr. Koca, it's good to have you here.
[:[00:02:00] Imam Tariq: So, one of the things that we want to do,before we get into the work that you're doing, is to take a second to talk about how you got here, is there a formative experience or a memory or a mentor or something that you can point to that has been essential in leading you to where you are today?
[:[00:02:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but I always had this interest in,where, Philosophy, science and religion intersects,where they start to talk to each other, where they can benefit from each other. So I always have this interest,on that. So after years of quantitative [00:03:00] experimental studies, physics and math,I wanted to,journey into new perspectives.
[:[00:03:29] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I wanted to,look at this whole story and to myself, to the world from different perspectives as well. I journey into philosophy. I did a ma there,and eventually,I wanted to do some serious religious studies too. So I did a PhD in,philosophy of religion and theology.
[:[00:04:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I did that too,in a more informal way. so I'm a student. I'm still learning a lot,always,listening, learning, studying,reading different text. Nowadays I'm translating a text,from Islamic,metaphysical tradition. so I,am,writing a commentary on it. the book is called, Miftah al-Ghaib,
[:[00:04:30] Imam Tariq: Would you translate that, the title of that book
[:[00:04:38] Imam Tariq: right?
[:[00:04:46] Dr. Ozgur Koca: that book was,used,throughout the centuries as an introduction to Ibn Arabian, thought. but it's not available in English. so I'm just trying to make it available. but also the book is dense and difficult. I'm trying to unpack [00:05:00] it here and there. so writing my own commentary on it as well.
[:[00:05:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So it's gonna come out insha'Allah in 2025, Route, which will publish it. I hope we're almost there.
[:[00:05:30] Imam Tariq: Was that something that was always with you?
[:[00:05:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: so I think I always had that interest in,I always had this philosophical tendency.
[:[00:06:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Right? that requires a lifetime study. so I entered into different fields. I wanted to be able to put the scientific knowledge, what we know about the world, like from the physical mathematical side And the spiritual,wisdom,which we can find abundance of it in Islamic tradition.
[:[00:06:39] Imam Tariq: Yes.
[:[00:06:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Also the one who allows us to know it. And,also,can be known from different, aspects, I think Tawheed kind of unifies things, right? the whole world, it unifies. Therefore, I believe any,Muslim scholar who takes this idea of unification seriously,[00:07:00] will probably not get stuck in one field and be blinded by it will probably also have its own adventure in other domains.
[:[00:07:26] Dr. Ozgur Koca: it's very common to see.
[:[00:07:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah.
[:[00:07:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca:
[:[00:07:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think the book is primarily addressing the researchers in the field.
[:[00:07:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And philosophers, graduate students who are interested in these topics. professors,perhaps even, some advanced undergrads.
[:[00:07:54] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think I wrote this book for the academia. . but I actually,my [00:08:00] strategy is I promised myself to write two for the academia and two for myself.
[:[00:08:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I did that, I wrote two books for academia, like for advanced researchers in the field. Now I'm working on two other books coming, and that's gonna have a wider audience,because,I'm gonna just express certain ideas.
[:[00:08:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: in a serious manner. And I'm not just saying the Muslims, I believe,books like this can be benefits from non-Muslims, Christian theologians,thinkers,Jewish thinkers, Buddhist thinkers. this is a big topic. this discussion between religion and science is a big issue.
[:[00:09:04] Imam Tariq: Yes. because each tradition would have its own. engagement and understanding with the idea of causality and science. we're talking about free will and we're talking about what is,empirically observable, right? Yes, which is science. How would you situate this book within the broader Islam and science discourse?
[:[00:09:35] Imam Tariq: right?
[:[00:09:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I was focusing on,the issue of free. how Muslims understood,that question of freedom and in relationship with,causality because,to be free, to be an uncaused cause of yourself, if that is [00:10:00] true. So it's like directly,very intimately related to question of causality.
[:[00:10:29] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And what is the relevance of that study for modern Islam? So I was asking that question in the last chapter. I was making certain allusions discussing it in certain depth. But,in one chapter, one can, only do so much, right? touching,upon some certain important subjects that really developing them.
[:[00:11:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: with, we may not think about causality in our daily lives, we may not even know the notion But if you think about it. almost all discussions we have on religion and science,they all seem to be boiling down to question of causality.
[:[00:11:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: on the other hand,most, believers believe in the,creation of Adam and Eve or species,directly,as a result of a miraculous creation or,interrupted causal processes.
[:[00:12:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: What event is followed bywhat event? with a close study of the world, you understand these causal processes, the relationship between causes and effects, And then with Acausal, you are able to see new connections between new causes and new effects.
[:[00:12:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: because we now understand the causal network that is making this possible, and science [00:13:00] does this, and technology uses this knowledge and creates new technologies causality lies at the very heart of scientific project
[:[00:13:16] Imam Tariq: Yes. You actually bring me back to the title of the book. Was it a mga? yeah. Yeah. So key to the unseen,causality is dependent upon what is observable yes.
[:[00:13:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: very likely,
[:[00:13:49] Imam Tariq: Right? Because technology continues to change based on new observations.
[:[00:14:00] Imam Tariq: Okay.
[:[00:14:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: in the first chapter, I'm giving a brief overview of,the most definitive descriptions of causality. I'm looking at basically three,big schools. One of them is the Mu士tazilite theology. they have important things to say about it and Asha'rism,or Ahl al-Sunnah doctrines. mostly agree with Ash鈥榓rites, but I'm mostly focusing on, Ash鈥榓rites on this question.
[:[00:14:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I'm looking at these three causal doctrines and I'm asking now how can they help us? [00:15:00] To navigate the discussion between religion and science. Basically the book is doing this. this is also an attempt to make the traditional thought relevant, how do,go back and forth. basically, if you wanna hear more about these doctrines that they're saying and how can they help us, I can give you a brief overview.
[:[00:15:19] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah, sure. from o doctrine,they start from the notion of justice, right? these people, they were describing themselves as Ahl al-Taw岣ツ玠 wa鈥檒-士Adl , which means, we are the people of Tawhid, unity and justice. their,theological doctrine is based on the notion of justice.
[:[00:16:00] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There's reward and punishment and some of us deserve this, and some of us deserve that, right? So there's that justice,God is just, right. justice is at the very center. So to be able to establish, divine justice, We also should be able to establish the causal efficacy and freedom in the created order,
[:[00:16:28] Imam Tariq: we have the ability to earn. Reward or punishment.
[:[00:16:32] Imam Tariq: Right?
[:[00:16:38] Dr. Ozgur Koca: if you take that out, then we are just like leaves before the wind. we don't really have anything to say, but that undermines the divine justice. And mu'tazilites cannot accept that. Therefore, they say we have this power, they call it istit膩士ah, or sometimes,right. this power.
[:[00:17:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So there are laws in the world and our freedom. So the makers of the world, therefore two things,
[:[00:17:20] Dr. Ozgur Koca: One of them is nature's laws and the other one is our freedom. So this two makes the world, that's their, basically their doctor that seems to be establishing justice in a robust way.
[:[00:17:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So therefore,they want to centralize the divine will divine freedom, divine creation, divine sovereignty. [00:18:00] And,you can't do this without offering,an accompanying theory of causality. they offer a theory of causal photos, and it's called sometimes as occassionalism, so occassionalism or Islamic occassionalism.
[:[00:18:16] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And it is God who creates effect and it is God who attaches them to each other on a self-imposed habitual pattern. Now it's this habits of God, sunnah tul-llah, or adl'tul'llah. So these habits of God, they,are the guarantors of the.
[:[00:19:01] Dr. Ozgur Koca: when I'm speaking to you, billions of things are happening in my body. Billions, like on a molecular particular cellular level, billions of things in my brain is happening. And, my neurons is participating in the exact. Chemical interactions are happening, my muscles are participating, and then I can utter words, and then these are coming out of my mouth.
[:[00:19:41] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So it's a mind blowing process, right? By the way, if you think about it this way, everything that's happening in the world, like just mind blowing, like billions of things are just happening at all moments. in a mind blowing,orderly fashion, but also including novelty in it.[00:20:00]
[:[00:20:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think you can say that, but they wouldn't use the term participation yet. that's gonna come later for asha'rism is,it's God who's creating cause and effect. So when you touch with fire to a cotton ball,
[:[00:20:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Therefore we can predict it. if you can sense it it's immediately brings an immense sense of robust divine presence. it's divine creation everywhere.
[:[00:21:02] Imam Tariq: Yes.
[:[00:21:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: the world is recreated anew at each moment. It's like a pulsating world between existence and non-existence. It's like a frequency.
[:[00:21:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So there is this cause relationship. this is an elegant and profound and,very powerful way of seeing the world, however, and of the later generations, except most of this, by the way. Now Sufis love this too,because of this immediate divine presence, The imminence and very powerful presence of divine sovereignty and power.
[:[00:21:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: if it is God who's creating both cause and effect all causes and all effects, right? and if my freedom is a cause [00:22:00] now even my freedom is being created by God, right?
[:[00:22:23] Dr. Ozgur Koca: so I'm engaging,that discussion as well in the book. I'm also,offering certain solutions, my own solutions also, but also,just taking that conversation between the scholars I think, to a step further. And,at end of the day,I also,agree with this theory,is not,I think establishing human freedom agency as strongly as, mu'tazilite, theory does.
[:[00:23:04] Imam Tariq: before you
[:[00:23:16] Dr. Ozgur Koca: it is like there's cause and effect, right? Human presence,to be able to connect these cause and effect like human presence we must have. And,there's this ability to be an uncaused cause of ourselves, right? there's this have some real agency or,some real,freedom,efficacy. if you can't really,ground it in a strong way,we may be losing it.
[:[00:23:53] Imam Tariq: Okay.
[:[00:23:57] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There's on the one hand, mu'tazilite and ash'arite [00:24:00] doctrines, they seem to be presuming a separation between God and the world too, right? As if God is here,watching the world and the world is here,and God is affecting the world like the sun, perhaps. Well now sun is separate from us, but we still feel its effects, right?
[:[00:24:42] Dr. Ozgur Koca: a form, something like that. Because he is infinite, God is infinite. Nothing can really be truly outside of. if you really think about the notion of infinity, you can't really step out of, the divine presence. you can't really draw boundaries [00:25:00] around divine presence. God's essence is beyond,limitations, old limitations.
[:[00:25:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So in all theological and philosophical tendencies.
[:[00:25:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: and then we start producing our theological ideas, doctrines, ideologies.
[:[00:25:48] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but at a certain level, I believe this,type of imagining, this relationship between God and the world doesn't seem to be working really. And let me give you an example. I have a glass right now.
[:[00:26:22] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Because once you take God, right, nothing remains nothing. therefore,you can't really think about that relationship in that sense. Therefore, they will tell us. We see this tendency, especially in Islamic philosophical and islamic spiritual domain. this is not pantheism, however. but they wanna say, divine is closer to us than our own juglar vein
[:[00:26:56] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but also God is closer to us than our own selves. [00:27:00] Therefore, if you understand causality in this context now where you bring transcendence and imminence together it appears different and,I give the details and quotes a lot of quotes in the book,but just very briefly, I can summarize it here.
[:[00:27:41] Dr. Ozgur Koca: If I have freedom, this is why I am, I can truly be free. the ground of my own freedom is the divine freedom. we are not talking about really two separate,things. Although are freedom absolutely depend on the divine freedom, our power, absolutely defined on divine power.
[:[00:28:16] Imam Tariq: Well, that leads me to ask, how do these models influence Muslim views on free will.
[:[00:28:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So in the second chapter I look at,contemporary religion, contemporary discussion,on religion and science.
[:[00:28:46] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So there seems to be a few issues that we need to address. one of them is,when they usually use,scientific theories to make sense of,divine causality in the age of science. As they say it, like divine [00:29:00] causality. the issue is this science is,acting on the basis of this presumption.
[:[00:29:26] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I mean it in terms of understanding the world, creating technologies, and,it allowed us to know a lot about the world, how the world processes. this is what science does. but how do you reconcile,divine causality? we have, everything is explained in terms of natural causality.
[:[00:29:59] Dr. Ozgur Koca: [00:30:00] And now it is our, job to apply these three doctrines to this central question of the reconciliation of natural causality and divine causality, divine presence. but we should also be able to address the question of human freedom because if everything is causal right, then we appear to lose human freedom.
[:[00:30:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Precisely. And what's our dignity? Where is our value real without having a,real freedom. And,so after entertaining a lot of discussions on this literature, I came up with, we should have at least four criteria to have,theory of causality, which can.
[:[00:31:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I offer four criteria to judge the strength of a theory of causality. so it shouldn't put any,prioritized,boundaries around scientific research. And second, it should be able to explain miracles,without reducing them into,science stoppers or,metaphoric stories.
[:[00:31:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Because ash'arism was very sensitive about this, right? It's an important topic. We shouldn't wanna just see God as,a necessary lens as some philosophies do. and lastly, [00:32:00] it should be able to,give us a very strong sense of divine presence because again,this is,from an Islamic point of view is the very center, so divine presence, freedom.
[:[00:32:22] Imam Tariq: So let's start with miracles. how does Islamic thought accommodate belief in miracles without undermining scientific principles?
[:[00:32:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: One of them sees miracles as negation of causal processes. God just negates these normal, causal processes and creates in a different way. this is called [00:33:00] sometimes nafy al-士膩da, like the negation of habits. a good example of this, say a king rides a horse, right? Normally, but sometimes it just walks among the crowd, right?
[:[00:33:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: They say even these,miraculous events, have a causal basis. there's a causality,under mining. Them, so there should be a causal explanation to these events too, but they don't. Move. beyond that,they don't say, how then,these new causal networks are being,initiated.
[:[00:34:08] Dr. Ozgur Koca: They don't deny miracles. Nobody does. By way, no one serious really. So they don't say, these are metaphors, this didn't happen. But just, Scott is using them as literature, literature twice or something like that. So they don't say that, but,they will tell you this,a mu'tazilitetheologian will,tell you that these things are causal.
[:[00:34:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And that's very important for them to keep that intelligibility of the world that we understand we can act in it. So they're very big about this. so they say miracles are closed. And national e theology would tell you, look, miracles are [00:35:00] not, these are negations of causality that just creates in a different way.
[:[00:35:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I'm trying to solve this, by the way. I offer my own take on this and this is how I do it. as I said, mu'tazilites just say miracles are causal, but they don't seem to say anything else. It's just, they just leave it at that. and they don't say anything like, where is the divine freedom?
[:[00:35:55] Dr. Ozgur Koca: On the other hand, ash'arite doctrine is beautiful, I believe, theologically, but it [00:36:00] says this challenge,if,interruptions, if negation of causality happen, right? then how can you really,establish a rigorous existence on,scientific explanations in the world of modern know, modern science. one can expl, one can perhaps,allow these type of interruptions to some degree, right?
[:[00:36:48] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Okay. Can you see the tension here?
[:[00:37:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yes. Yes.
[:[00:37:31] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So for a mo,even in those unobservable parts,we don't just see them, but causal network is so profound, so beyond,sure we may just see the effects, but even that causality
[:[00:37:58] Dr. Ozgur Koca: they might think that I am,[00:38:00] not a healthy person, right?
[:[00:38:02] Dr. Ozgur Koca: now, since we now know those unobservable causal networks, This doesn't seem like a miracle to us, but it may have seemed like it to them. Perhaps that issue still would still remain.
[:[00:38:35] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I'm saying something like this. Look,perhaps we can bring together muesli and approaches. we can bring them together because for ash'arism, it is divine freedom, I mean it says divine freedom that is at the very center of their theological project. and for mu'tazilites it's justice and therefore causality.
[:[00:39:20] Dr. Ozgur Koca: We can bring the two together. I say that we can perhaps see these events by starting from our own experience because we all time, every time we human beings We bring together freedom and causality in our actions. Look how we do this. when I wanna raise my hand, I just raise it Now, there are two explanations I can give for this.
[:[00:40:02] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But look, in my own experience right now, I am bringing together, I am given to myself as a free agent, but also participating in causality as if these causal processes,translating my will into an action. Is that clear so far?
[:[00:40:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Now, this is like a reality that we always experience, right? Perhaps we can think about the,these miracles or divine action world in a similar sense.
[:[00:40:55] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But at the same time, we can also,be convinced that a type of natural [00:41:00] causal processes may also be present in them. So we can bring the two together in my view, without really having to sacrifice. So we can really bring together the mu'tazilite and ash'arite sensitivities,I believe within the larger context of,this participatory,causality, in that we can do this,we then we may have able to,preserve both.
[:[00:41:49] Dr. Ozgur Koca: and it's a, like a divine invitation. it's as if telling us, look, the world processes, the cosmos that you are encountering with is causally. [00:42:00] So pregnant causally so extraordinary that if you tap into the right causal processes, you can also create, these extraordinary miraculous things.
[:[00:42:36] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But this doesn't, again, makes us like,like strictly causalist people. We can also see them as expressions of divine will. specific expressions of divine will are being translated into reality through causal processes. I suggest this in the book.
[:[00:43:13] Imam Tariq: Do you think the way we understand something like causality affects how we pray or connect with Allah on a spiritual level?
[:[00:43:46] Dr. Ozgur Koca: If you see God like a distant being, like who created and left alone like a deist would do,then you would pray perhaps even. Right. And if you pray, perhaps you're just [00:44:00] praying a distant God, but if you pray to Allah,who is closer to you than your own self, how would you pray? Right? Who knows your thoughts, even your prayers, and who is closer to you than your own self.
[:[00:44:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: If you see God as the first cause at the end of a very long chain of causality, right? like a domino pieces, right? Like pushes, and then all dominoes fall. But the first mover is now beyond. it's [00:45:00] just unreachable. If you see God as a first cause at the end of a very long chain of causality, it's a very distant God and aloof God.
[:[00:45:30] Imam Tariq: Yeah. It's internalized.
[:[00:45:35] Dr. Ozgur Koca: It is now,you are in the divine presence now.
[:[00:45:54] Imam Tariq: yes.
[:[00:46:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Although you do not see God, God surely sees you. what is the combination of religious experience according to prophetic definition, this consciousness of presence. worship God as if you see, This presence,is at the very center. And if you think about,this theological discussion, if you look at it from this perspective.
[:[00:46:40] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I only thing that I do that I wish to speak, everything else happening in my brain, molecular particle, cellular level acts are being created in my brain. And all I want to do is to wish to speak and I can utter words. And this air can transmit it to you, and then it can go to your ear and your ear.
[:[00:47:17] Dr. Ozgur Koca: We are always in the midst of this act of love, because it's this, if this is given to us, like it is an immense sense of rahma. It's an sense of compassion and the love,hence,spiritual taste, hence,Strong sense of divine presence is almost annihilates my whole being, although it also bestows it too.
[:[00:48:08] Imam Tariq: So you would obviously say that there's a certain amount of foundational knowledge that is necessary to meaningfully engage with these topics?
[:[00:48:31] Imam Tariq: That's right.
[:[00:48:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There are some fish, perhaps a little bit deeper, but there are also fish. They live in the deepest levels, right? but if you take these fish living in the [00:49:00] deep right through the surface, if you want to take it to the surface, you're probably gonna kill it, right? Or the fish living in the surface to the deep 'cause of the pressure, you're gonna kill it too.
[:[00:49:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And here we truly need,very profound, deep,philosophical, metaphysical,spiritual,thought and practice.
[:[00:49:42] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And by the way, we are not just inventing it now. Now if you look at the islamic intellectual spiritualist, it's already been done. some of the books I was, trying to translate this book and it's very intense.
[:[00:50:06] Imam Tariq: Alright. I have to ask,because it feels like a natural segue, since you are faculty at Bay Islamic Graduate School.
[:[00:50:19] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah, I was asked to teach a course on these books. I think we are planning on that, so I will probably, teach a course on Islam and science issues, but,this will be one of the readings.
[:[00:50:50] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So since then, I am part of it. it's almost like my own child too. I have this personal attachment to it. I also see it as a great opportunity for American Muslim [00:51:00] community. and through that,The Muslim,civilization in general, Muslim, societies in different parts of the world.
[:[00:51:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And we see Islam as this very large circle within which one can draw smaller circles. Sometimes they intersect, sometimes they not. But they're internally coherent, but they all are within this very large circle. and this is good. I think we,need these spaces in which,scholars, students,leaders, advocates, they can come together and learn from each other,by going beyond sectarian, [00:52:00] ideological,theological,Juris prudential differences,while respecting each other,and,again,without having to erase their own identity.
[:[00:52:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think there's a reason that we are made in this qab膩示ila this nation's tribes.
[:[00:52:34] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but if you are stuck in only one nation, one tribe, right? You're gonna see the world only from one perspective. But if you go visit your other tribes and other nations, perhaps this is also giving you a perspective journey.
[:[00:52:53] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I practice photography too. I know the importance of perspective. it's everything actually like the perspective, finding the right [00:53:00] perspective.
[:[00:53:06] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.
[:[00:53:23] Dr. Ozgur Koca: then we're, if we were trying to know our Lord, we do need help. we help each other. We do need to learn from each other. Otherwise,we can be really benefiting from that richness from a very limited way. so Bayan in my view is creating this opportunity, for perspective journeys.
[:[00:53:46] Imam Tariq: Well, thank you so much. My last question is going to be what's next for you? You mentioned that you wanted to do two books that were more for academia and then you wanted to write for yourself. So what's [00:54:00] next?
[:[00:54:06] Dr. Ozgur Koca: this is both for the academia and for the, interested Muslim,readers, not only Muslim, non-Muslim. Also, I think this is a book on social metaphysics. I believe a lot of people will be interested in this. This is still, I believe, somewhere between academia and,general audience.
[:[00:54:44] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think I'm trying to address this,crisis of,belief and certainty and belief and all of that. I just see that as a humble contribution to that. And after that, I'm,also started to, bring the file together and that is going to be, focusing on the question of,[00:55:00] serenity, bliss and fate.
[:[00:55:19] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think we all carry our history with us.
[:[00:55:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah. I went too deep, like having difficulty coming back.
[:[00:55:39] Imam Tariq: I want to thank our guest, Dr. Ozgur Koca for a truly enlightening conversation. Dr. Koca has taught courses such as Islamic Ethics and Muslim spirituality among others at Bayan Islamic Graduate School. You can find the links for Dr. Koca's books in our show notes, so be sure to check those out. And if you enjoyed this episode, [00:56:00] be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, leave a review, and most importantly, share this conversation with others.
[:[00:56:30] Imam Tariq: And finally, join our community of learners by getting your bayan on demand all access pass. For just $10 a month, you'll gain unlimited access to over 30 courses taught by leading Muslim scholars and educators, and we continue to add content as we go on. Alright, until next time I leave you, as I greeted you, As Salaamu Alaikum , may the peace that only God can give be upon you. [00:57:00]
